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being born again, dark night of the soul, experience, eyes of the heart, following Jesus, pain, the old self
I want to begin this article with a quote from a brother who commented on my blog last year in December. Reading his words back then for the very first time, they really hit me and I felt they had come directly from God. Meanwhile I even saw that his whole comment has been a prophetic message for me. Here’s Dan Dailey’s comment.
“I’ve come to believe God actually does his work in us exclusively through suffering. This isn’t to say there aren’t seasons of rest given also by God’s hand, because both suffering and rest are vital and given to us by him. One is not more important than the other, but they both come by his hand and in his timing and serve very different roles. James 1 tells us clearly that it is the perseverance through trials that brings us to maturity and completion.
When I reflect on every major life shift and revelation he has brought me to, it’s always accompanied by trials. Every time. This is a pattern that holds up in the Bible, too.
People like to say God never gives us more than we can handle, but I’ve come to believe he deliberately gives us more than we can handle… though never more than HE can handle. These times of heartache and suffering drive us to rely on him. It’s in these times I learn to accept my weakness and exchange it for his strength.
It’s also important to remember that ALL things are ultimately for the glory of God. He blesses and curses. He brings life and death. He shows grace and hardens hearts. I can’t begin to fathom his purposes, but I know it’s always for his glory and the good of those he calls his own. All creation is made to point to his glory, and so are our sufferings.
We like to look for the good outcome of every difficult situation, attempting to rationalize trials as for a purpose we can quantify, but I suspect sometimes hardship serves to glorify him in ways we’ll never see or be able to reconcile. This doesn’t mean he isn’t good, it simply means we are finite and he is infinite. His ways are not our ways. He is wild and untamed, answering to no man and acting in any way he pleases.
I don’t understand this amazing God we serve, but I trust him.”
Indeed, our human nature, our old Adam and Eve, our old self is self-focused and superficial because it neither wants to suffer pain nor to dig deeper into the suffering of others. Our old self is rather inclined to put any kind of band-aid on festering wounds so that it does not see the pain although it is still there. Recently I have come to realize that as long as we are not able to embrace pain as given by God, we won’t ever be able to be patient in tribulation and to really share the pain of others who suffer. As wonderful as it is to rest in God’s peace, to enjoy His love and to feel joy, such periods of my life did never leave me changed. Instead, afterwards, when I was suffering again, I saw how blinded I had been by own “light” during all those spiritual highs, still thinking it had something to do with ME. It is good that God took all of His blessings away from me recently, except for His permanent presence. I am still assured that He is with me although there is no positive feeling left.
Today in the morning, as so often lately, I awoke after a too short night with ongoing pain in my heart and all in tears. However, suddenly I saw somehow that it REALLY makes sense to suffer that way. Actually, pain and suffering do not automatically change us, since if so, the whole world would look much differently right now. I cannot explain to you HOW I realized it, but I suddenly saw that God and Jesus do not live on an “alien planet” aka Heaven where they always live in joy and peace and love together while we as miserable human beings on earth are still struggling with our lives. Instead, although God Himself never changes, He is the author of ALL our feelings. I believe that God’s compassion goes way deeper than we might imagine, for it is written,
“But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth, To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lamentations 3:32-38 KJV)
I would be interested to hear your thoughts and/or experiences on the subject of suffering. Please, feel free to weigh in with your ideas that came to mind.
ServingJesusHere said:
It is funny that I had this talk a few days ago with a brother. He went on to say that God will not give us more than we can handle…..to echo the words of some leaders who claim that God will not let us suffer at all because we are here to enjoy ALWAYS.
As someone who has gone through-and still going through- more than I CAN handle 😉 , I told him that I actually believe the statement needs to be amended to “God will give us MORE THAN we can handle because we have to learn to rely on His strength. He will give us the grace to handle that which is more than we can handle”.
I went further to say that if God actually gave us what we can handle by ourselves, then what’s the point of Him being there.
I told him somethings I didnt think he has ever heard before and it disturbed him.He understood what I said and hopefully it sinks in but he was trying to not accept that God will let us suffer.
I pray for him because God is working in his life (I saw this in a dream a year before it began) but…..let’s just say he has a long way to go. Nothing too difficult for God!
SO i agree with Dan’s comment.
I can say that most of, if not all, my growth has come from suffering/trial/temptation. There are so many things I thought I knew and professed but being tested/tried has sure opened my eyes to a “time to practice what you preach” -kind of reality.
You can’t say you have lived it till you have been tested with it.
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
“You can’t say you have lived it till you have been tested with it.”
Yes and amen, Ngozi. Glad you agree with Dan, too.
No human being wants to suffer, therefore it is God who puts us into situations where we cannot run from, be that circumstances and/or internal spiritual sufferings. He knows what is best for our spiritual transformation into the likeness of Christ. It seems although He deals with each of us differently, we cannot avoid pain which the old self would rather love to run away from. So, we really need a new self and a new heart that is able to surrender and to say, “Thy will be done.”
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ServingJesusHere said:
Amen! Thy Will be done. That’s what it boils down to. Good or bad.
Thanks Susanne x
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
You’re welcome, my sister. Thank YOU! ❤
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Michael said:
This is sooooo rich! I am so happy for you two sisters! God puts a high premium on experience… He has no ivory tower saints. Paul knew what it was to be pressed beyond what he could handle and wrote,
“Our hope for you is unshaken; for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort. For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of the affliction we experienced in Asia; for we were so utterly, unbearably crushed that we despaired of life itself. Why, we felt that we had received the sentence [answer] of death; but that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead; he delivered us from so deadly a peril, and he will deliver us; on him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again.”
(2 Corinthians 1:7-10 RSVA)
Death working in us is the answer to our heart-felt prayers that we would be conformed into the image of Christ that we would no longer trust in ourselves, but in HIM alone.
Love you in Him,
Michael
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
Yes, Michael, death is working in us…
Great Scripture, fits perfectly!
Love you in Christ,
Susanne
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ServingJesusHere said:
This is to Michael as I couldn’t see a reply button for his comment. You reminded me of my post “Yes, I said it. I gave up” when you wrote “….pressed beyond what He could handle”.
I think I am learning to welcome such pressing from the Lord- even though it is PAINFUL, to say the least, it is necessary.
All things do work together for good….
Thank you for your encouraging words
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
Yes, Ngozi, “it is PAINFUL” – no doubt!
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Michael said:
Ngozi, you are welcome. I loved your blog, btw!
http://servinggjesushere.wordpress.com/2015/01/11/yes-i-said-it-i-gave-up/
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Michael said:
Susanne, this was really a great article and so good to see you getting this revelation in your heart from our Father. What a gift to see that it is true, “ALL things work together for the good of those who love God and are the called according to HIS purposes.” I like what you said here,
“As wonderful as it is to rest in God’s peace, to enjoy His love and to feel joy, such periods of my life did never leave me changed. Instead, afterwards, when I was suffering again, I saw how blinded I had been by own ‘light’ during all those spiritual highs, still thinking it had something to do with ME.”
YES!!! What a breakthrough to see things from the perspective of the cross. Jesus said, “If any man would be my disciple, let him take up his cross and follow me.” He did not say, “… let him take up his mountain top experiences and follow me,” although they have their purposes to be there in our memories and keep us in the battle when all we see around is is death and destruction, knowing that HE is real and has shown His love to us. Those who have “vision” without suffering are truly blinded by their own light. But then we finally grow to see that God is there in both experiences and trust in Him.
“If I ascend up into heaven, you are there: if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall your hand lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hides not from you; but the night shines as the day: THE DARKNESS AND LIGHT ARE BOTH ALIKE TO YOU.” (Psalms 139:8-12 KJ2000 – emphasis added)
You are in my heart and prayers dear sister,
Michael
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
I deeply a appreciate your prayers, Michael. Thank you!!
You even made me smile again about one thing in your encouraging and confirming comment as you said,
“He did not say, “… let him take up his mountain top experiences and follow me,”
That is so true, indeed. 😉 I agree with everything you wrote in your reply above, my brother. Praying for you, too, always.
In His love,
Susanne
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Brenda said:
Reblogged this on White Raiment.
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
Thank you for another reblog, my dear sister! You made my day!! 🙂
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Dan Dailey said:
Great post, Susanne! God’s use of suffering as a means of sanctifying us is something dear to my heart, as it’s something he’s been revealing to me over the past few years… by means of suffering, of course 😉
You said: “Actually, pain and suffering do not automatically change us”. If I may, I’d add that it’s actually not the pain and suffering that change us at all. The suffering merely gives us the opportunity to lean on him and persevere, but the pain in itself doesn’t cause us to grow. Many suffer and never lean on Christ, and come away unchanged.
I wrote a short post on this awhile back: https://danieldailey.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/never-give-up/
Suffering does us the service of pointing out our weakness, but if in our stubbornness we don’t look to Christ’s strength then the trials avail nothing. If the Lord blesses us with eyes to see our depravity and our deep need for his sufficiency (for his grace IS sufficient!), then there is room for us to grow IN HIM.
People like to say what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, and it’s this idea that gets imported onto what the Bible says about suffering, but this is a humanistic idea that is not really Biblical at all. Our trials shouldn’t make us stronger, they should cause us to cease in our own strength and rely on his. The Word says “he must increase, and I must decrease.” Obviously God does not increase, as he is already the only sovereign of the universe, but in our decrease he is glorified in us. This is the opposite of growing in our own strength. Rather, we are to grow up into HIM!
The Bible never says we won’t be given more than we can handle. Not once. It does say we won’t be TEMPTED beyond what we can handle, but that’s different. God loves us enough to bring us low so that we can be taught to operate the way all creation is intended to operate: in submission and reliance to him; our almighty, omniscient, magnificent father! He is the singular source of EVERY good and perfect gift.
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ServingJesusHere said:
I agree, once again, whole heartedly with you Dan. I should know because i am in that situation where I am realizing (through suffering ofcourse;) ) my humanity and weakness and knowing to lean on Jesus and no one/nothing else.
Like you rightly said, we can learn from pain and suffering or we can NOT.
I was just musing over some things some days ago….I came to conclusion “Generally speaking, We all will die sometime-someday. You can either choose to die for Jesus or die in vain”
By death, i mean physically and/or spiritually.
Anyway thanks for your insight Dan.
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
Thank you, Dan! I admit that was brooding quite some time about what you said above regarding pain and suffering not changing us at all….as I was reminded of the following Scripture that says,
“In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.” (Heb 5:7-9 ESV)
Even Jesus had to suffer although he never sinned and was only clothed in the likeness of our sinful flesh. So it seems to me that suffering brings forth obedience toward God, also for us. The world who does not know God cannot learn anything through suffering. They can either despair or get aggressive and rebellious – against whomever. But our chance lies in the fact to accept what has been given by God (God-ordained suffering, so to speak).
Yes, we are really driven to rely on Him as soon as we are at our wits’ end. At the end of our rope and of our own strength, when we finally realize that we cannot help ourselves and can’t be helped by others, either, we will cry out, “My God, I really need YOU!!!”
Thanks again, Dan, I really enjoyed reading your post which you linked above! 🙂
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Michael said:
Susanne, your wrote, “Perseverance, character, and hope will be brought forth – and then love. ALL is fruit, you’re right, nothing man-made. And afterwards there will be another revelation, another trial…..revelation….trial……and so on, until our Christlikeness has been perfected.”
Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
(1 John 3:1-2 KJ2000)
Revelation is spiritual sight… seeing Him as He is! You described the process on how we are conformed into the image of Christ! The world knows us not,.. trials, separation, loneliness… why? Because we are God’s children. He makes sure we are cut off from this world kosmos system that is under Satan. At the same time God is giving eyes to see HIM and HIS kingdom and conforming us to His Son.
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wayne said:
Hosea 2:14-15 14″Therefore, behold, I will allure her, Bring her into the wilderness And speak kindly to her. 15″Then I will give her her vineyards ( fruit ) from there, And the valley of Achor ( trouble ) as a door of hope.
He gives us trouble as a door to the Christ life in us ~ wayne
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
Amen, Wayne. Period. 🙂
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Michael said:
This great, Wayne. It is as if Father wrote this directly to our sister!
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
Yup, brotha! I agree wholeheartedly. 😉
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jacqui said:
Oh how we wish there was another way! Even Jesus said this to His Father so how much more we to avoid the path of suffering.
In my naive motherhood status I have often prayed to the LORD in my early days that my daughter would not suffer like me. Now …. I pray if suffering is what it takes for my daughter to know you bring it on. It is a dangerous prayer I know and I’ve prayed it and cried over seeing the suffering.
Everyone hates suffering and I think in part we do not understand our feelings at all, I certainly don’t and will do anything to avoid it …. yet when the time has passed I can see how much closer I have been with God and that He was right there all the time. This to me now is the comforting thing that I am not suffering ALONE. We CAN bear all things knowing God is right there with us.
Oh it’s such an emotive subject suffering and you can see it on those who believe and those who do not believe. My question would be Why do some turn to God in suffering and some don’t?
I think there will be many answers to that question and other questions arising. I think the biggest deal is accepting that suffering is part of life and I thank God for the times of rest I don’t think I would survive otherwise.
Here is the thing ONE DAY in Heaven it will be all gone! All tears, pains so we know that it is fleeting and passing although it seems like eternity at the time. I just thank God for every hope, every dream, every healing will come maybe not all in this life time but will definitely come. I can wait ….. what else is there ….. who else has the words of eternal life. Me I want to sit down at the banquet and just gaze upon the beauty of the LORD. What a wonderful God! Jesus got down dirty and suffering just to be with us and save us. If He suffered then we can expect to do so. If we suffer then we can know that Jesus shared the same human suffering for us, with us, by us within us.
God Bless Susanne xx
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Herbert Orr said:
I read Michael’s new message. HOWEVER, I CANNOT REPLY WITH MY COMPUTER. so, I will give you this message. I CONSIDER BOB MUMFORD TO BE MY SPIRITUAL FATHER. I PROBABLY HAVE MORE THAN 50 CASSETES OF HIS TEACHING. ONE TIME WITH SCRIPTURAL TRUTH. THIS TRUTH GOT ME OUT IF A BAD SITUATION WITH A CHRISTIAN LEADER.
FOR YOU AND MICHAEL: PLEASE READ THE WORDS TO “TAKE TIME TO BE HOLY: AS PAT AND I SANG IT WITH DEVOTIONS; I FELT LED TO TELL YOU I AM GLAD TO BE BOTH YOU AND MICHAEL’S FRIENDS. please pass this on to Michael.
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Herbert Orr said:
dictionary definition is:GLORY: GOD’S CHARACTERISTICS: Jeremiah 24 b (GOD DELIGHTS WHEN WE REPEAT:LOVINGKINDNESS, HOLINESS,RIGHTEOUS,
JUDGE. ALL KNOWING. ELOHIM: (,CREATOR); ADONAI: (MASTER) EL SHADDAI
(MIGHTY) JEHOVAH JIREH:M (PROVIDER); J RAPHA:(HEALER) J. ROHI (SHEP-
HERD), J.SHALOM:(PEACE) J SHAMMA. (PRESENT); J. NISSI: (BANNER);
J’ SABAOTH, (HOSTS OR MULTITUDE),FATHER OF LIGHTS (JAMES 1 V 17)
FATHER, ANCIENT OF DAYS, I AM, WAS & SHALL BE. WONDERFUL COUN-
SELER;
I like maybe the best (present) ‘IN HIS PRESENCE IS FULLNESS OF JOY! PS 16 V 11. TODAY AS I WAS MEDITATING ON JOY: ZEPHANIAH 3 V 17; ABOUT JOY;
LED INTO WORSHIP!: GOD WILL EXULT OVER YOU WITH JOY! HE WILL
REST IN HIS LOVE; HE WILL REJOICE OVER YOU WITH SINGING!
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Herbert Orr said:
GLORY IS BEST PUT TO WORK AT END OF THE LORD’S PRAYER. WHEN YOU
PRAY “GLORY” YOU CAN MEDITATE ON ALL GOD’S CHARACTERISTICS.
I HAVE A TEACHING I MAY SHARE LATER. I HAVE TO PUT IN ON E-MAIL BECAUSE I WANT TO PUT IN ON PAPER. IF YOU PREFER: YOU CAN GIVE ME
YOUR ADDRESS SO I CAN SEND IT VIA SNAIL MAIL.
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Georgia B. said:
I’m so glad I was pointed to your blog today by Michael, whose blog I recently discovered. I’m in tears as I read your words, and your brother’s. And they are words that are timely on this 13-month anniversary of the loss of our daughter. I’ve been feeling much like you lately… many tears and actual physical pain in my heart {now I know why the term heartache was coined}. I needed this reminder today that God is close to the broken-hearted… that He is here with me in my suffering. I needed the reminder that I draw closest to him in suffering and that he is shaping and molding me to be more aware of the just how much others suffer around me and how I can walk with them like so many have walked with me. Actually, that was something I was just thinking about earlier tonight, so reading her was more of an affirmation than a reminder. This is a great post on suffering. Through the past two years, I’ve had some great people with Godly counseling me to embrace the pain and suffering and not cover it up or pretend it’s not there. So I am grateful for that. I have a hard time with Christians who don’t see suffering as part of the walk… an integral part as your brother pointed out. The prosperity gospel that seems to be so prevalently taught in our western culture today points us away from that aspect of the Christian walk. But what about the things that are out of our control… for which we can not do a single thing to prevent it… like losing a much hoped for baby to Trisomy 18 six hours after she was born? There has to be something about suffering that is so important… even beneficial. I’ve been met with blank stares when trying to explain this. I think it is something difficult for many to grasp. While I was pregnant with my daughter, I listened to a wonderful sermon about suffering by John Piper. He has many, actually. But this one was awesome, and it came into my path at such an important time. It was a pivotal moment in my outlook of our baby’s diagnosis, actually. It’ worth the listen, if you should find the time…
http://www.desiringgod.org/conference-messages/do-not-lose-heart
I actually found it via this song, which includes an excerpt from the sermon…
…also good, but the sermon is what I think is a great listen for those suffering.
Looking forward to reading more here. Thank you for this post today.
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
Georgia, you’ve touched my heart so very deeply with your comments. I do not know what to say as for the painful testimony you shared on here with me. It must have been horrible for you to lose your sweet daughter only 6 hours after she was born. I cannot even imagine how it must have felt at that time and how it stills feels….. I would really love to hug you right now and weep with you, knowing that the tears often don’t stop, even after hours. And your wound is still so fresh, just 13 months ago….. I know it’s impossible to tell anyone who never lost a child that the child is still with us, in our thoughts and hearts…..and that time not necessarily heals all wounds. It is God who heals, yet it is a long process.
Dear Georgia, you expressed exactly what I feel. You wrote,
“I have a hard time with Christians who don’t see suffering as part of the walk… an integral part as your brother pointed out. The prosperity gospel that seems to be so prevalently taught in our western culture today points us away from that aspect of the Christian walk. But what about the things that are out of our control…”
So true!!
People who flee from the cross in our lives do not want to hear about our tears and ongoing pains. They rather cling to a superficial kind of life. I do understand that because it seems to be easier at first sight, however, we can never reach the deep roots of true faith that are developed while we are forced to realize that we struggle with our former image of God and seek to meet Him on a new level, just as Job did.
I was glad to hear that God met you through John Piper’s sermons and esp. that particular one that helped you as you were pregnant. I appreciate John Piper, too, and I assume he spoke of his own experience(s) as he pointed to the things we cannot see and understand (death of a mother, a child,…) that REALLY grieve us.
May our God of all comfort meet you and your family in your suffering!
Much love to you ❤ ❤ ❤
Susanne from Bavaria xoxo
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Michael said:
Susanne, I am soooo blessed by the love you two sisters have for one another.. sometimes I wish WordPress had a ❤ "love" button I could click on for many of these comments! 🙂
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Susanne Schuberth (Germany) said:
🙂 Yes, Michael, LOVE buttons would be wonderful! ❤
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