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experience, faith, feeling, God's love, mountain top experiences, mystery, Oswald Chambers, rest, sanctification, seeing God, thought life
Just a Look from Above…
(Photo by Paul Schuberth)
Just imagine you were an experienced mountain climber and there was a particular mountain you know like the back of your hand. You have been at the summit several times, you even found different ways to climb up and down, your muscles are athletically trained, and your body knows how to deal with sudden pains and injuries too. Looking at the sky before you begin to climb, you know from your own experience without consulting the weather forecast which weather lies ahead of you and you know which clothing and how much food you will need.
One day some people approach you and say, “Tomorrow we will join you and we will summit the peak together.” After sizing them up, you realize that you need to tell them politely yet nonfactitiously, “I am very sorry, but I must tell you that there lie many months, maybe even years ahead of you until you can climb up with me.” Out of love you might encourage them to take the first steps and to accompany them if necessary, however, you won’t try to take them to the summit with you since their physical condition is obviously rather bad.
In order to put the story more spiritually, the sanctification process is a long one. If someone who stands at the beginning and has not received the Holy Spirit yet – although he might believe in Jesus – wants to fully understand someone who has been filled with Holy Spirit, there will arise some problems. Once again, Oswald Chambers provides a very helpful devotional on this delicate issue.
Why Are We Not Told Plainly?
He charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. — Mark 9:9
Say nothing until the Son of man is risen in you – until the life of the risen Christ so dominates you that you understand what the historic Christ taught. When you get to the right state on the inside, the word which Jesus has spoken is so plain that you are amazed you did not see it before. You could not understand it before, you were not in the place in disposition where it could be borne.
Our Lord does not hide these things; they are unbearable until we get into a fit condition of spiritual life. “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.” There must be communion with His risen life before a particular word can be borne by us. Do we know anything about the impartation of the risen life of Jesus? The evidence that we do is that His word is becoming interpretable to us. God cannot reveal anything to us if we have not His Spirit. An obstinate outlook will effectually hinder God from revealing anything to us. If we have made up our minds about a doctrine, the light of God will come no more to us on that line, we cannot get it. This obtuse stage will end immediately [when] His resurrection life has its way with us.
“Tell no man . . ” – so many do tell what they saw on the mount of transfiguration. They have had the vision and they testify to it, but the life does not tally with it, the Son of man is not yet risen in them. I wonder when He is going to be formed in you and in me?
http://utmost.org/classic/why-are-we-not-told-plainly-classic/
Pondering on Oswald Chambers’s last paragraph, I wonder whether we could put it physically again and say, “The day the ropeway was invented, everybody was able to have a mountain top experience.” In some cases, it really makes sense, esp. when people are not able to walk on their own any longer because of a certain sickness. However, the sanctification process does not need our body. Everyone will be sanctified on a long and often painful path where glory and miracles rather belong to the last part of that process. We all must go our way alone although we can offer others some help at times, yet we cannot skip those painful portions we need to have experienced before we will be glorified. Or in other words,
“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom 8:16-17 KJV)
Basically, our spiritual way with Jesus to God is neither about our thoughts or feelings, nor is it about gathering more and more spiritual blessings. Finally, it is all about HIM, about loving God more than anyone and anything else on earth and in heaven. And then, it is about loving our neighbors as ourselves. That’s all.
Great piece, Susanne. The testimony of a convicted life is far more powerful than the relatively shallow enthusiasm of a new convert. Oswald Chambers hits the target every time. What do you think?
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Thanks, Lloyd. 🙂
I love that sentence,
“The testimony of a convicted life is far more powerful than the relatively shallow enthusiasm of a new convert.”
So true! Although I came to know a few new converts who were truly refreshing as to their zestful enthusiasm to spread the Gospel, however, I admit THAT happened rarely.
I believe that Oswald Chambers always wrote about his own spiritual experiences and the consequences he had drawn from them. Thus I found them rather helpful recently when I was looking for a support of my own insights.
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Hi Susanne,
Thank you for sharing this! I wrote an observation about mountain climbing, and ants too (how they are related) on http://intimatekingdom.com/ants-intimate-kingdom/ However it touches more on our relational connectivity in spiritual maturity, but doesn’t really touch as to how we are intimately connected. The inward workings, that is. To say we are ‘one’ in Christ does not mean that we do not discern who we are to walk in oneness with. It is hard, I have to admit, to let someone go. But we are not really letting them go, as much as letting God mature them in His way and time.
Love!
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That was a beautiful and enlightening post you shared with me, dear Pam! Thank you so much for the link. 🙂
And you are right, it hurts every time when it’s necessary to let someone go although we can be sure that God will “mature them in His way and time.” Very well said!
Love,
Susanne xx
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O. C. wrote, “An obstinate outlook will effectually hinder God from revealing anything to us. If we have made up our minds about a doctrine, the light of God will come no more to us on that line, we cannot get it. This obtuse stage will end immediately [when] His resurrection life has its way with us.”
How true.. when we use our human minds we tend to constantly be categorizing people and things. For instance a typical way carnal Christians work is that they meet a Christian and we start asking them questions to find out how they believe. Then they say to themselves, “Ohhhhh, he is one of THOSE!” So then they put that person in a convenient pigeon hole and don’t listen to them any longer unless they are in the same pigeon hole with them! It is a lot less trying and testing to what we believe when we pigeon-hole people and shut them off.
BUT the Pharisees could not do that with Jesus. Nicodemus had his mind blown by Him in fact as he tried to pigeon-hole Him! “How can these things be?” said the old man. Spiritual people are the same way, they are like the wind. Paul put it this way…
“The spiritual man judges (discerns) all things, but is himself to be judged (discerned) by no one.” (1 Corinthians 2:15 RSVA)
The non-spiritual person will not understand or even agree with the person who has had their spirits exercised by many trials and experiences for these people have left their mother’s breasts and are foraging for themselves and growing strong as they “till, plant, harvest, and prepare their one food” spiritually speaking. In Hebrews we read,
“Every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.” (Hebrews 5:13-14 RSVA)
You don’t get this kind of training sitting in a church pew and watching TV all your life, expecting Pastor Wonderful to go out and find you something to eat and then chew it all up and spit it in your little baby birdie mouth. A good mother knows this and has a goal in mind and that is to teach her chicks how to forage for themselves and boots their butts out of the nest when the time comes.
“Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, that flutters over its young, spreading out its wings, catching them, bearing them on its pinions, the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no foreign god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, and he ate the produce of the field; and he made him suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock.” (Deuteronomy 32:11-13 RSVA)
Yes, the Lord does all he HE can to get us to grow up… He then tears up our nice down lined nests and makes like tough for us in our comfy hedged-in lives. THE LORD does it ALL so that we can feed ourselves ON HIM!! “He made him ride on the high places of the earth, and he ate the produce of the field; and he made him suck honey out of THE Rock.” Spiritually mature saints suck their spiritual nourishment from THE Rock, not from the breasts of men.
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A very thoughtful response, Michael. Indeed, what you wrote is the truth. And your Scriptures fit perfectly. ⭐
I was just reminded of two other verses that precede your first Biblical reference, which display why the carnal man cannot understand what the spiritual man is speaking of.
“And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:13-14 ESV)
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For us who do not know “obstinate, obtuse. & effectually” what they mean.
An obstinate (have it’s own way) outlook will(effectually) get results which
hinder God from revealing anything to us.
This (obtuse) “slow to understand” this stage will end immediately when His resurrection life has it’s own way with us.
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Alas, I am not quite sure what your point might be, Bernie. Did you repeat what Oswald chambers wrote above in order to go along with him or was there an unvoiced question included in your comment? Maybe you referred to Michael’s response here. As far as I understand it, God wants to share His wisdom with human beings. However, He wants to be asked – with faith.
“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.” (Js 1:5-8 ESV)
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I am interested in all your messages including Oswald Chamber’s. I want to learn what he is saying. The words : “obstinate, obtuse, and effectually” kept me from getting a full understanding. So, I looked up the meaning and understood all that he said.I thought maybe others did not know the definitions either. So, I made a reply with it.
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Aaaah…..! Thanks for clarification, dear Bernie. 🙂
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There are two aspects of sanctification—initial and ongoing. The initial sanctification, which happens in an instant, takes place when one is baptized in the Holy Spirit. There are several verses which show this. Here is one:
“Paul… unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called (to be saints)…” (1 Cor. 1:2).
The very word “saint” means “sanctified ones,” so the Corinthians could not even be called saints unless they were already sanctified—that is, set apart unto God. To be “in Christ Jesus” is to be sanctified. For He Himself is our sanctification.
“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption” (1Co. 1:30).
Here we see both the initial and the ongoing sanctification– which are both God’s work.
“For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren” (Heb. 2:11).
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Th. 5:23).
I am just saying that there is nothing more miserable than “trying” to be sanctified. Sanctification is God’s work. There certainly is a “workout” involved, and, as you said, Susanne, there is much God cannot involve us in till the vessel has been purged from earthly things, and is “meet for the master’s use.” But our “workout” is to cooperate with His work by abiding in Him who is our sanctification.
This, of course, is not just a passive thing; we are active participants in God’s sanctifying process, as is shown in the verse I have just referred to:
“If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work” (2Ti. 2:21).
Who can say what this will mean for each one of us? We must trust our Sanctifier at a very deep level when we find ourselves in places that are very difficult. He who has initially sanctified us will complete the process. He has a very high objective in mind. He will enable us to walk with Him on our high places.
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Thank you for pointing to the difference between initial and ongoing sanctification, Allan.
In fact, the more someone is sanctified, the less he will know about it since beholding the Lord 24/7 makes us forget everything that is of earthly origin only. We are set apart, as you rightly said above, in order to be IN Christ and that is where we belong, don we? 😉
I agree that our workout is to work with Him who nudges us in all situations to do THIS and to drop THAT.
Trust is indeed something we mostly find in very difficult places when our faith as for God helping us seems to be gone. Without the power of the Holy Spirit that puts us through all dark valleys, we would be lost, don’t you think?
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Yes. It’s interesting to read that after the Spirit came upon Jesus at Jordan, the first thing that happened is this: “Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil” (Mt. 4:1). How many of us would resist that leading and think it was the devil leading us, not the Spirit? But those who refuse to be led into a wilderness to be tested and tried and proven, and instead want to start immediately doing “great things for God,” never become sanctified and prepared for the temptations that come upon those who are in the heights. And so all too often they fall.
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Great thoughts, Allan. 🙂 And amen to that “doing great things for God” which is indeed a temptation that comes when someone finds himself/herself in the heights. By the way, if you have time and are interested, I wrote about my experiences with these things (don’t worry, it’s not a long article 😉 ) here https://enteringthepromisedland.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/the-temptation-of-spiritual-gurudom/.
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Right on, you two!!! Same thing that HE taught me through some very hard wilderness years in my life that I thought would never end (I read where Jesus returned to the wilderness to be alone with God quite often, BTW). I am so glad you both understand the value of the wilderness in your lives! It makes for a lot deeper fellowship than just head knowledge.
“And Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil… And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him for a season. And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.” (Luke 4:1-14 KJ2000)
The wilderness is not the goal, but only a means to get us to not trust in ourselves, but rather yield to the Spirit for ALL we need and NOT on our own understanding or might. So many who are “in ministry” have never passed this test and they also lack power with God.
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I am glad you said that the wilderness was not the goal, Michael. 🙂
Indeed, as long as we find ourselves in midst of our wilderness years, we are inclined to think that they never end. However, as soon as we have learned to fully trust in God and His leading in our lives, He takes us into His promised land and lets us enter the kingdom of God which is the “land flowing with milk and honey” (Jer 11:5 ESV) which He had promised, even sworn, to give us one day.
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very interesting and well written, thank you!
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You’re welcome. Thank you, Mark! 🙂
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🙂
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This was a lovely and thought provoking post. Just what I needed to hear, too.
Something you said in a comment above struck a chord with me, “God wants to share His wisdom with human beings.” Yes! The key words there being “His wisdom,” not just our own.
You can really discern the difference in people, what is them speaking and what is God speaking through them. There’s nothing wrong with speaking our own wisdom sometimes, it’s just that when people allow God to speak His wisdom through them, it’s so amazing! That’s how I can tell there is sanctification there.
Sometimes people will speak words to me that are just so perfect, so tailor made for my situation, and they wouldn’t have any way of knowing that. It’s quite delightful when that happens.
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Yes!!! You nailed it, Gabrielle, by saying,
“You can really discern the difference in people, what is them speaking and what is God speaking through them. There’s nothing wrong with speaking our own wisdom sometimes, it’s just that when people allow God to speak His wisdom through them, it’s so amazing! That’s how I can tell there is sanctification there.”
Amen to that. Although God is also able to speak through a donkey if no sanctified person is around (Nm 22:30), 😉 He speaks through those who really know Him more often and more clearly. That’s for sure.
Thanks for your enlightening words, my dear! 🙂
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Yes Sue I think that a major problem in our twenty-first century church people is that they mostly think with armimian thinking instead of Calvinistic thinking–it’s not my will working to make myself set apart..its Gods will working inside of me to make me set apart–I get the privilege to participate and I even get to share in His glory..He is such a likable Dad.
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So true, Kenneth! ⭐ You wrote,
“It’s not my will working to make myself set apart..its Gods will working inside of me to make me set apart–I get the privilege to participate and I even get to share in His glory..He is such a likable Dad.”
Very well said, my brother! 🙂
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I remember reading “Into Thin Air” by Jon Krakauer. If you remember, it is the non-fiction account of a 1996 disaster on Mt. Everest when 8 people were killed. The inexperience of certain climbers played a major role.
It is, unfortunately, common in our culture to compare ourselves to others — even spiritually. At best, such comparisons can be misleading (tempting us to think more highly of ourselves than actually is the case); at worst, they can be deeply discouraging (making us vulnerable to attacks by the adversary which further separate us from God).
A theology of works, a history of abuse to which workaholism is the response, and a work environment that worships at the altar of Mammon all contribute. Against that background, it is difficult to trust that the “work” needed to sanctify us will be done by the Spirit. Yet it will. We have God’s word for that.
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Oh yes, dear Anna, inexperience is a great danger which is highly underestimated in many areas of life where people are led by their pride to BE something instead of being led by Christ’s Spirit that is so humble in every situation.
And you are absolutely right about these wrong comparisons. It is a “sickness” of culture to do so since it begins already in kindergarten and is continued in schools. If there is someone with who we should compare ourselves, then it should be Christ. Nonetheless, I think all these comparisons, even the latter, are not that healthy for our mental condition as you rightly pointed out, “at worst, they can be deeply discouraging (making us vulnerable to attacks by the adversary which further separate us from God).”
Thank you for sharing your experience and wisdom with me, my dear sister! 🙂
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