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discerning the spirits, ears of the heart, following Jesus, God's love, listening, Oswald Chambers, sheep, shepherd
My Sheep Hear My Voice
(Photo by Susanne Schuberth)
If we have ever been in love, we know that hearing the voice of the one whom we love can make our heart flutter with anticipation. Well, one might object here that this is a common human experience, however, does it apply to our experience of hearing God just the same? Jesus said,
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” (Jn 10:27 ESV)
This is a promise, a statement that assures us that His sheep can discern His voice from others. Jesus “knows” them, i.e., He loves them, and we might assume as well that their love causes them to follow Him eventually. Although there might be many voices every day that talk to us without interruptions, there must be something special about the voice of the One who created us. In order to illustrate what I just tried to explain, I will share my latest “sheep experience” with you. 😉
Yesterday I decided to take a prayer walk before preparing dinner. Since I have struggled with fighting a cold for some days, I left my bike in the basement with a heavy heart since I would have rather made a cycle tour under the clear blue sky. Nonetheless, finding myself about a half hour later on the biker bridge (walkers are allowed too, of course), I had to grin about myself, once again, for I truly tend to forget while walking time and again that I have no “wheels under my feet”, so to speak. Completely lost in contemplation and in my own thoughts, I sometimes realize that I am walking on a biking trail which is meanwhile more familiar to me than hiking trails are. 🙂 Be that as it may, as I saw that there was a flock of sheep beneath the bridge, I wanted to take some pics with my cell phone. Alas, the sun stood very low in the west and it was not possible to take good pics from there. The shepherd saw me standing on the bridge and told me what to do. Actually, he is a very friendly man. Even last week as I had come very close to his sheep on a hill at the Rhine-Main-Danube Channel where they, the sheep, had finally chased me away from one of my prayer benches, their shepherd gave me some good advice as I was biking uphill which is partly very steep. Since I did not cycle with a mountain bike, I eventually would have to realize that my city bike, out of the blue, would rear up like a horse so that I lost control and balance as only my back wheel had touched the ground. 😛 Oh boy, I was even mad at God that He didn’t warn me before… But maybe, He did, though, yet my ears had been stuffed on that very day.
Anyway, yesterday as I was walking around the provisional fence that surrounded the flock, I was disappointed that those lovely sheep decided to only show me their wooly bottom. Talking to them did not help either. Quite the contrary! From whichever side I approached them, no sheepy face wanted to posh up the pics I took. As I had almost given up on it, one sheep suddenly turned around and looked me right in the eyes. It stood completely still and listened to my voice while the others kept feeding on the grass and weeds. Wow!! That was an amazing experience! Only one of those many sheep that finally listened to me… 🙄
In closing, I want to share a quote from Oswald Chambers with you which deals with the danger of knowing a lot versus knowing, i.e. loving, the One who created knowledge of any kind. If we are used to only “know” in our minds, but not with our hearts, we might miss the chance to encounter the Living God, even today.
It is possible to know all about doctrine and yet not know Jesus. The soul is in danger when knowledge of doctrine outsteps intimate touch with Jesus. Why was Mary weeping? Doctrine was no more to Mary than the grass under her feet. Any Pharisee could have made a fool of Mary doctrinally, but one thing they could not ridicule out of her was the fact that Jesus had cast seven demons out of her; yet His blessings were nothing in comparison to Himself. Mary “saw Jesus standing and knew not that it was Jesus”; immediately she heard the voice, she knew she had a past history with the One who spoke. “Master”!
http://utmost.org/classic/does-he-know-me-classic/
[Bold emphasis mine]
Susanne, this was wonderful. It touched my heart. Jesus wants intimacy with His sheep, not book smarts about him and people who truly KNEW Him. You have demonstrated your heart relationship with Him in the way you write about Him. It is always a heart felt blessing to read your blogs. 🐻
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Mmmhhh…… ❤
Thank you sooo much, Michael! Your comment, likewise, has touched my very heart. I am glad that you have been blessed by my wooly-sheepy experiences. 🐱
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Susanne, I found a quote from T. Austin-Sparks that I thought went along with your article and quote from O.C. It is amazing how the understanding of a man who walked the walk cuts through the religious fog…
“The anointing you received from Christ lives in you.” (1 John 2:27 GW)
When will the Lord’s people, who have the Scriptures and who know the Scriptures so well in the letter, when will they come to realize and to recognize that if truly they have been crucified with Christ, if they have died in His death and have been raised together with Him and have received the Spirit, they have Light in their dwelling? “The anointing which ye received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you, but… His anointing teacheth you concerning all things” (1 John 2:27). When will believers, when will Christians, come to realize that? Why must Christians who have the knowledge of the Scriptures in the letter, run about here and there to seek advice from others on matters which vitally affect their own spiritual knowledge? I do not mean that it is wrong to get counsel, wrong to know what other children of God of experience think or feel about matters. But if we are going to build our position upon their conclusions, we are in great danger. The final authority and arbiter in all matters is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the anointing.
We may get help from one another, but I do hope that you are not going to build your position upon what I say now because I say it. Do not do that. I do not want you to do it. I do not ask you to do it. What I say is: listen, take note; and then go to your final authority Who is in you if you are a child of God, and ask Him to corroborate the truth or to show otherwise. That is your right, your birthright, the birthright of every child of God: to be in the light of the indwelling Spirit of Light, the Spirit of God.
By T. Austin-Sparks from: The Anointing: Light Within Our Dwellings
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Yes, that is a very fitting quote, Michael. Just yesterday before I had read what you shared on here, I saw the freeing perspective of “His anointing teacheth you concerning all things” (1 John 2:27).
It is not only so that we do not need to run to and fro in order to get counsel from other Christians and that we need to know what they think about religious stuff and doctrines, His anointing fills us so much that we can trust in His continued leading as for ALL things that occur in our everyday life.
Whenever a decision has to be made, whenever someone tells us something of which we do not know how to judge it, and whenever we think we must plan something, HIS counsel comes from our inside, even immediately. There is no need for ANY other teacher in our life than HIM, although confirmation through our brothers and sisters is a great blessing too.
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Yes Sue this is a very appropriate post–just yesterday in our little gathering one lady says that Jesus must have the preeminence in our relationship with the Godhead and I let it be known about my dissatisfaction that the bible always seems to get the center of attention in our gatherings–so they all started to attack me and tell me how important the bible is–one lady said to me–well I do not know how to tell the difference between His voice and all the others–I said to her–well you have to know Him as a being and not just study about Him from a book–I mean when you marry a person you do not marry a book–then I gave them the example of lets say a young girl of 16 or 18 who is a virgin and decides she wants to get pregnant and have a baby so she goes out and buys a book that truthfully explains to her how to get pregnant and have a baby–she reads it–she studies it–she memorizes it–and she believes it—will she get pregnant? No she will not–she will have to have a sexual experience with a male and then she can get pregnant and have a new creation inside of her and bear his fruit—well they continued to attack me and I simply said I did not want to talk about the issue anylonger—your post was a great uplift.
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Oh boy, I imagine that was a very frustrating experience for you yesterday, dear Ken!!
But I do love your sense of humor as you said,
“I mean when you marry a person you do not marry a book.”
Ha! That is sooo very true! ⭐
I am glad you were helped through my post. You have always been a blessing to me with your insightful responses, my brother!
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I just love that picture of that sheep staring at you–he seems very interested in you and looks like he wants to listen to you or say something to you
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Thank you, Kenneth. 🙂
In fact, I was just trying to remember what I told him…. maybe, it was something like, “You are a good sheep, I love you very much…” or something like that. I often speak with animals that way (a bit freaky, I know XD ). But most of the times, they do not answer in German, nor did I ever hear them speak in English. But my heart hears them, though… 😉
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Well, Susanne, He DID say that His sheep hear His voice and I bet that this one sheep heard Him speaking through you! 🙂
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Hahaha, you’re funny, Michael! XD
But I do hope you are right since, as you might know, I love animals that much! ❤
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Ken and Susanne, This was a great illustration of what is wrong with most Christian relationships which are more centered around a book, or church doctrines than the One who wrote it, the living Christ, as a love letter to us all!
I also have a true to life illustration that seems to go right over the heads of those in love with the book when I share it, but not over the heads of those as yourselves who Love HIM.
When I was in the Navy, 7000 miles from my wife to be, I was in the waters off of Vietnam and she was back in the states. Anyway she wrote to me every day for those nine months. I read those letters over and over waiting for the next bundle of them to come through with our “lumpy” mail service that was NOT every day. As time went on I bundled those letters in groups of 20 or so and saved them and brought them home with me. But you know what? Once I had her in my arms, I never read one of those letters again. Why should I? I had the REAL THING there living with me from then on!
This is what is wrong with those who worship the book. Jesus put it this way to the Bible scholars of 2000 years ago…
“You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40 RSVA)
I am soooo glad that I have Him in a very real and personal way as my husband whom I love and don’t have to rely on His love letters only any longer, aren’t you?
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Wow I need to get those church ladies turned on to you and Sue
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Those ladies are welcome on here, any time, Ken. Just started praying for them… ❤
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Yes, I am relieved about not needing His love letters as I did in past before I got to know God that close. There is a season for everything, it seems to me, since I remember that I had several times where I really “devoured” the Bible as if I had never read it before. That was back then as the real depth of Scripture flashed up to me, each time on a deeper level. That was a wonderful experience as well and I do not want to miss it. However, nothing compares to being loved by God as Scripture confirms, “Knowledge puffs us, love builds up” (1 Cor 8:1).
Thanks for sharing your “living testimony” about your and Dorothy’s love for one another so openly on here, Michael. Great illustration! ⭐
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You are welcome, Susanne. Isn’t it funny how God was speaking to me through real life circumstances about what He wanted, even before I fell in love with Jesus in 1970?
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Yes, our funny God uses EVERYTHING outside of us to point us to the truth we finally find inside ourselves, in our spirit.
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Susanne, as I read your reply again about when the depths of the Bible really “flashed up to you” as you “devoured the scriptures”… I also had this experience, but my hunger for what is written in its pages centered on and was empowered by my love for Jesus in my new found First Love experience with Him. I HAD TO know more about Him and I could hear His voice intimately as I read that book. SO YES!!! God uses the scriptures not as an end unto themselves, but rather to point us to Christ and reinforce our love relationship WITH Jesus. It is a sad thing when we start reading and studying the Bible to just get Bible knowledge for whatever reason, instead of it being part of His intimate drawing of our hearts to Him alone as a love letter and not a mere legal document.
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Michael – can i give an AAAAMEN!!! jn12:They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. “Sir,” they said, “we would like to SEE Jesus.” We are supposed to be witnesses of Jesus, allowing Jesus to manifest through our life so people can see Him. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.Like you said people are tired of hearing about Him they want to see Him. ~ wayne
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Now you get an AAAAAMEN, too, dear Wayne. 🙂 Seeing Him is waaay more thrilling than always only hearing about Him through second-(third-fourth-)hand experiences.
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Many people through the years have declared Him through the spoken word as if they knew Him personally. But, to watch their lives and to hear their much speaking, (which always felt like a club over ones head); I could not see any evidence of Christ in them. Christ was non existent in them, though their words spoke much of Him.
I am in agreement with Wayne: I am tired of hearing about Him, I now long to see Him, to touch Him, to hear His voice and none other!
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So true, dear Susie. ❤ They spoke/taught/preached “as if they knew Him personally.” Indeed, our lives should display our walk with God. If not, well, then there seems to be something missing, still…
I do hope that your longing for more of Him might be fulfilled ASAP!
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Wayne, Great point, my brother. I love how the KJV that quotes these Greeks you speak of here as saying, “Sir, WE WOULD SEE JESUS!” They did not want to see Philip or any of the apostles, or the rest of the “five fold” for that matter! They only wanted to See the ONE who is the Author AND THE FINISHER OF OUR FAITH! No man, no matter how high his calling is in the kingdom of God can take the place of what our “ONE Mediator between God and man” can do, that is for sure!
I think that as we become ONE as Jesus and the Father are ONE (see John 17:21) we become like salt in a horses oats. This gives scope to me in what Jesus was saying, “You are the salt of the earth…”. The saying goes, “You might be able to lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”… that is unless you put salt in the oats he eats first… THEN he will drink and drink. Because of Christ in us, out or our innermost being flows LIVING WATERS, not dead letters. We become those LIVING LETTERS to be read of all men. Praise His wonderful Name for HIS LIFE in us! It is ALL about Jesus, always, and never about us. Amen!
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When I awoke this AM, this song came to me. :GOD BE WITH YOU TILL WE MEET
AGAIN! BY HIS COUNSEL GUIDE, UPHOLD YOU: WITH HIS SHEEP SECURELY
FOLD YOU! ……”another phrase: DAILY MANNA STILL PROVIDE YOU:
(JESUS, THE BREAD OF LIFE.)
A song I love” THIS IS MY DAILY BREAD: YOUR VERY WORD SPOKEN TO
ME! THIS IS THE AIR, I BREATHE:YOUR HOLY PRESENCE LIVING IN ME!
AND I AM DESPERATE FOR YOU! AND I AM LOST WITHOUT YOU!
1″
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Wow! That was lovely, dear Bernie. You see, that song did not come to your mind by sheer coincidence; it was His Spirit’s flow… that made you show….He lets us grow….. since – God loves us sooo! ❤
Thanks for sharing! ⭐
PS
I am glad to see that your new email addy works now! 🙂
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Those words match the cry of my heart! Thank you for sharing them, Bernie.
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God’s voice has been directional in my life, and unexpected. I am so grateful for His voice. Many times I enjoy His presence, even though I don’t hear His voice, I may have a peace, a joy, or an awe of Him.
Years ago, I had 2 Mormon missionaries come to my house. They began their presentation with the question, ” Would you believe that God spoke to Joseph Smith? I responded with, ” God has spoken to me”. They immediately wanted to hear what I had to say. I warned them that they were following a false prophet. I don’t remember if I shared anything that God has spoken to me, as the words were so personal, that I have basically not shared them, but walked in them. However, the Holy Spirit was with us. I believe that the young men were hungry for God, and that they left with gospel seed sown.
My prayer is that we hear His voice, and continually know His fellowship.
Susanne, thank you for this precious post. You create a hunger to walk with Him and you together.
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Oh, dear Pat, your words have deeply touched my heart!!! Thank you very much for saying THIS! 🙂
You are so welcome to everything I can offer, which is not that much but a little writing. I am so glad to hear that God put a hunger in your heart for more of Him.
Your testimony regarding those 2 Mormon missionaries made me smile since my hubby and I had a very similar experience in 1995 and we also felt that God had done something in their hearts. They are always so friendly and kind, those young men, so eager to share their gospel. God wants to save everyone and I am sure He did an amazing thing through you back then, my dear sister. 🙂
I am grateful to God to have come to know YOU and I am happy to walk with you, even only virtually as it seems, but in the Spirit we are already together – FOREVER! ❤
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Today, I have had the privilege to i “LIE DOWN IN GREEN PASTURES AND THE STILL WATERS AS A SHEEP. NOW, I WANT TO SHOW APPRECIATION TO HIM IN WORSHIP ACCORDING TO Ps. 95 vs 6a & 7 “AS A SHEEP OF HIS HAND.” I WANT TO DO I WITH PS 100 vs 2 -3c “WE ARE HIS PEOPLE AND THE SHEEP OF HIS PASTURE. “So, my worship is : “ENTER HIS GATES WITH THANKSGIVING AND HIS COURTS WITH PRAISE..and “BLESS HIS NAME”! Jeremiah 9 v 24; I WANT TO BOAST THAT GOD IS A GOD OF LOVINGKINDNESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUDGE. FOR I KNOW HE DELIGHTS IN THESE THINGS!”
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Simply beautiful, Bernie! 🙂
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We are bombarded by noise and information from all sides. TV, phone, radio, and new devices I can’t even name. But His voice is all important. Despite the din, we must always listen for that.
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So true, Anna! And so difficult to get away when our days are full with what we must do. Sometimes I really need to break away from my everyday duties in order to find a more silent place where my heart and mind can calm down and thus, finally, are more receptive to hearing HIS voice than to all the other “noisy” ones around me.
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My break away place is in the barn where I live, yep, I live in a barn out in the country. It is here where the world cannot reach me or see me. It is here that I find much solitude and quiet, something that my soul has needed; and it is here where I drink deeply the peace and quiet.
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It must be wonderful to live there, Susie. I was so glad to hear that you experience peace and quiet. 🙂
May God continue to bless you, my dear sister! ❤
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Actually, it is just a humble abode, nothing fancy; an old relic of a barn surrounded by dilapidated turkey brooder houses ( it use to be a turkey ranch). But, the surrounding area is Almond Orchards and Sweet Potatoes, so there are pleasantries around us.
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Mmmhhhh… the surrounding area is surely beautiful, dear Susie! ❤
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I’m always late to the party, but what a charming post! Lately my husband has been working on a vineyard and they have miniture pet sheep. I guess they drive him crazy because he has to actually pick them up and move them, one at a time when they get in the way. The sheep do not hear his voice at all! They only respond to their shepherd.
Our eyes can deceive us, even our brain can fool us, but there’s just something about a voice. It has genuine spiritual implications, like the way artists and writers “find their voice.” It isn’t just speech, it’s the essence of who we are.
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That was just lovely, dear Gabrielle. ❤ Thank you very much! 🙂
No, you were not late to the party at all because since last week I had neither time, strength nor inclination to write a new blog post. Also, very often in the past you were the first one to comment on here. And I am always blessed by your comments, my sister, whenever you have time to write one. ⭐
This story about your hubby and his problems with those miniature pet sheep made me smile. In fact, esp. little sheep look so cute, but how stubborn they can be unless they have a good shepherd who leads them in the way they should go.
I fully agree with what you said about voices. Particularly we as women usually have little difficulties to find out what has been said between the lines when we listen to a voice while the written word and what we only see can truly be quite deceptive.
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Gabrielle and Susanne, I agree that writing and reading what is written has definite limitations, as to being able to hear the intent of what was said and whether it was said in love or spite. I had that happen recently over something I wrote and I thank God that the person was kind enough to give me the benefit of the doubt and asked me to clarify what I meant instead of writing me off.
I also agree that women can often “hear and read between the lines” and get meaning where men do not. This can be good in heading off a sneak attack from what Jesus called “a generation of vipers” as He often had to do when the Pharisees and Sadducees tested Him with their words. Or it can result in reading something into what was said that was not intended. At best we are still strapped with the failings of the languages of the fall of Babel. This is why Paul said that we are not to know one another after the flesh, but after the Spirit… a true challenge in cyber age.
God bless you both!
Michael
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Your additional thoughts on this were very helpful, Michael. Indeed, our language(s) can easily fail us. Thank you for sharing your implications with us on here.
God bless you, too.
Susanne
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Susanne, I might add that it is a true challenge to know one another after the spirit in them over the internet alone, but with God all things are possible for time and space are only found as limitations when we know one another after the flesh alone. I am glad that you found what I wrote helpful.
Michael 🐻
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Yes, Michael, it is truly a challenge, but we both know that for God ALL things are possible and since God is Spirit, we may know one another after the spirit without even meeting physically. We have not met Jesus physically, either, and we know Him, or rather, are being known by Him as well. This experience is certainly not something human beings could ever achieve on their own; it must be given by God.
Susanne 🐱
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Yes, knowing Him and one another after the Spirit is where any REAL communication happens, for sure, and it is truly a gift from our Father! 🐻
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Yuppers, brotha. 🐱
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Dear Susanne, in this text you give the impression that Jesus created us, but it was God Who created the universe with all its being, inclusive Jesus, His only begotten beloved son, and us, who are called by this son of God to come to his sheepfold.
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Thanks for your comment, dear Marcus. I agree with you that it was God who created us. But where was Christ at that time when all things were created? How do you understand the following verses, for instance?
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (Gen 1:26 ESV)
Who is the US here? The Godhead, that is, God, Christ, and the Spirit of God? Would you agree with that? Also, there are even Bible verses that refer to Jesus Christ as the Creator, too. We read,
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (Col 1:15-10 ESV)
What do you think, Marcus?
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. (John 1:1-3 RSVA)
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Your comment made me smile, Michael. You know why? 😉
Before I posted my reply to Marcus above, I had added exactly this verse and a reference to my own encounter with our Creator, Jesus Christ, as described in “My Testimony” (https://enteringthepromisedland.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/my-testimony/). But then God nudged me to delete it. Now I know why… 🙂
Thanks a bunch for confirmation, once again, my dear brother. 🐱
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I thought it strange that you had not included this most obvious reference to Christ being in creation. I guess Daddy wanted to make room for me in this thread as well. 🐻
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Although I cannot tell you what God really had in mind, 😉 that might have been part of his intentions too since God wants to see Christ’s Body built up through many members, not only through one of them. And I am glad you weighed in here, Michael. 🐱
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What you just did at His leading is very important. Jesus always included other people in the conversation often by asking questions that He knew the answer to! As when he said to the disciples “Who do men say that I am?” He Open an opportunity for Peter to hear the father speaking to him and for Peter to be affirmed that He could hear the Father’s voice.
Bless you, my dear sister! 🐻
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Thanks a lot, Michael, for saying this!
Great insights of yours here, my brother. 🐱
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In the Genesis Moses starts with the beginning of the creation of all things by the Divine Creator Who is The Mightiest of all and therefore let Him speak in the Pluralis Majestatis or Royal We, like any high placed person shall speak in this plural form, though he or she shall be only one person. As such a King, Queen, director, teacher shall say “we” not in the meaning that he or she is existing out of more than one person.
Later in the Messianic Scriptures the apostle John looks at the new creation or the beginning of the New World, the world which was prepared by the Kristos or Messiah Jeshua, Jesus Christ. It was this man God was talking about in the Garden of Eden, the beginning of mankind. He was the solution provided for the fall of man. As such the Word spoken by God at the beginning of all times was the presentation of this Messiah.
The word is not a person but a subject, a result of a breath coming out the mouth, here the Mouth of God, the Voice of God.
Yah Chanan wrote (John 1:1-3): In the beginning the Word having been and the Word having been unto God and God having been the Word he having been, in the beginning, unto God all through his hand became: and without him not even one being whatever became. {Aramaic New Covenant; ANCJ Released: 1996 Contents: New Testament Source Used: Exegeses Bibles (1996) Location: Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom}
In English this may properly be translated also as:
“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Emphatic Diaglott – interlineary side)
or
1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.*+ 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men.+ 5 And the light is shining in the darkness,+ but the darkness has not overpowered it. (NWT)
It was by God that things came into being. Also by God Jesus came into being, but only much later in time. Jesus was already in god’s Plan from the beginning of mankind, long before Abraham, but he like you and me was already written down in the book of life but not yet born, like we also were not yet born at that time though already in God His Head and in God’s Plan.
In Genesis 1:26 the US is not a plural being but the Only One True God Who is One. Nowhere in the Scriptures you shall find that He is part of a Trinity or that He is part of a Godhead existing out of God, Christ, and the Spirit of God. the Word of the One who does not tell lies says that there is Only One true God, the God of Abraham, who created the earth and heavens.
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1 ASV)
“Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created.” (Revelation 4:11 ASV)
“Ah Lord Jehovah! behold, thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thine outstretched arm; there is nothing too hard for thee,” (Jeremiah 32:17 ASV)
“And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:27 ASV)
“These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.” (Genesis 2:4 ASV)
“1 Praise ye Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah from the heavens: Praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: Praise ye him, all his host. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: Praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, And ye waters that are above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of Jehovah; For he commanded, and they were created.” (Psalms 148:1-5 ASV)
“2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am Jehovah: 3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah I was not known to them.” (Exodus 6:2-3 ASV)
“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be thou perfect.” (Genesis 17:1 ASV)
“Now I know that Jehovah is greater than all gods; yea, in the thing wherein they dealt proudly against them.” (Exodus 18:11 ASV)
“2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am Jehovah: 3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah I was not known to them.” (Exodus 6:2-3 ASV)
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3 ASV)
“Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;” (2 Corinthians 1:3 ASV)
“That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.” (Psalms 83:18 ASV)
“After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.” (Matthew 6:9 ASV)
“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;” (1 Corinthians 8:5 ASV)
“For all the gods of the peoples are idols; But Jehovah made the heavens.” (Psalms 96:5 ASV)
“For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus,” (1 Timothy 2:5 ASV)
In case Jesus would be God than your god faked his temptation, because God can not be tempted, faked his death, because God can not die, and than your god would be a god not of order and clarity like the Bile tells us, but one of confusion (not to say lies) because the Bible tells us that man can not see God and live, though many saw Jesus and there were even people who came to live again and then saw Jesus, who in later years let others see his wounds to proof he is not a spirit, though God is a spirit, not having flesh, bones or blood, all things Jesus had.When Jesus is God than he always did his own will and had no reason to pray or to call unto God even demanding why God had abandoned him.
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.” (Exodus 33:20 ASV)
“And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Matthew 26:39 ASV)
“I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30 ASV)
“For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 6:38 ASV)
“I delight to do thy will, O my God; Yea, thy law is within my heart.” (Psalms 40:8 ASV)
“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; remove this cup from me: howbeit not what I will, but what thou wilt.” (Mark 14:36 ASV)
“then hath he said, Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:9 ASV)
“The Spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Almighty giveth me life.” (Job 33:4 ASV)
“See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.” (Luke 24:39 ASV)
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 ASV)
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Romans 8:11 ASV)
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I appreciate your Scriptural input here, Marcus, and I see that you know your Bible very well.
It seems to me that we disagree as to what “seeing God” might mean. As for me, I always refer to our spiritually enlightened eyes of the heart only. With our physical eyes we are not able to see God without dying immediately, that is for sure.
Do I understand you properly that you deny Jesus being God? Not sure… You wrote,
In case Jesus would be God than your god faked his temptation, because God can not be tempted, faked his death, because God can not die, and than your god would be a god not of order and clarity like the Bile tells us, but one of confusion (not to say lies) because the Bible tells us that man can not see God and live, though many saw Jesus and there were even people who came to live again and then saw Jesus, who in later years let others see his wounds to proof he is not a spirit, though God is a spirit, not having flesh, bones or blood, all things Jesus had.When Jesus is God than he always did his own will and had no reason to pray or to call unto God even demanding why God had abandoned him.
If so, we might agree to disagree here. As wonderful as it is to know the Bible, as much more wonderful it is to know God and Christ through the Holy Spirit. By God’s grace we may also know Him who inspired all that we can read about Him. I was just reminded of Jesus’ wish to see all men come to HIM as He said,
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” (Jn 5:39-40 ESV)
I assume Jesus was sad to see that some of those around Him did not want to receive eternal life from Him. Instead, they preferred to remain in the darkness and hide before the light of the living God in Jesus Christ.
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Yes for me and many other Christians Jesus is not God but the son of God, like the Scriptures tells us. Many bible students take every day time to study that infallible Word of God and only want to honour the One God of Abraham. For them and me, we are thankful that Jesus really has given his life for us. He had all reasons to fear man like we may fear man, because they could do something terrible to him. For God man can do Him nothing and death also can do nothing to God. But for the Nazarene master teacher it was the reality of his life that he really could loose it and had to trust his heavenly Father, the same way as we do have to trust Jesus and his heavenly Father.
We do know that not just in the knowledge of Scriptures we shall find eternal life. It is just in our acceptance of Jesus that we may find eternal life. That is the important reason that out of love we do want others to get to know what Jesus has done for them and show them why it is so important to recognise Jesus his work and doing and accepting his position. But that does not include making him to our god.
Perhaps you also can have a look at some of my other sites and especially the “Messiah For all” site which concentrates on Jesus his importance for our salvation. It is a site which I only started recently, so there are not many writings on it and it still would take some time before we come to present or to go deeper into the New testament writings. But perhaps it is word having a look. There you shall also be able to find the reasons why I created that site next to the Christadelphian ecclesia site and the Brethren site.
For sure I do not want to stay in the darkness and for that reason I have done away with all human doctrines and prefer to stick to the Biblical doctrines, believe the words of God and the Words of Jesus, the one who was willing to die for me and doing only god His will and not his own will.
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Marcus, now it seems to me that we are not that far apart from one another. What I have been wondering about all the time while reading your comments was whether you might have been a Messianic Jew, perhaps? 😉
My intention was not to make Jesus our only God since Jesus as the Son of God in his time on earth was fully man like you are and I am, too. Nonetheless, without being fully indwelt by God’s divine nature (“for in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” Col 2:9 ESV), He would have never been able to do what He did, that is, dying for the sins of the whole world on His own authority (cf. Jn 10:18). No human being would ever have wanted to endure such a cruel death, even for us unrighteous sinners, don’t you think? 🙄
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It is not the first time I have been asked if I am a Messianic Jew.
I do come out a very traditional Old Roman Catholic family, have been a acolyte also, but soon doubted certain actions of that church which were contradictory the sayings in the bible and which were pagan rituals. After some church shopping in the 1960ies, passing along the Charismatic Catholics and investigating teachings of many protestant churches I became a non-trinitarian Baptist. Though in the 1980 a big shift was taking place in the baptist community, having the trinitarian American Baptist church Union. Therefore in the end I too transferred to an other community. Most of my Baptist brethren went to the Jehovah Witnesses and the Church of God but in both of these groups I found certain things I could not agree with. (The Church of God ignored that Jesus would have done away with the Mosaic Law in a certain way.) Others choose smaller denominations.
In preferring to have no human organisation as my cornerstone, but Jesus Christ, I became a Christadelphian.
In my youth, having gone to school in a city where many Jews lived and having contacts with several Jews, I also got to hear their and my Jewish family members believes. From that Jewish site I also became convinced how we do have to pronounce the Tetragram and what God’s Name really is.
To say “No human being would ever have wanted to endure such a cruel death, even for us unrighteous sinners” is not giving righteousness to what Jesus really did. It is underestimating to what a human being is capable when he really wants to follow God’s Word. This also would make it that God was not able to create a good and/or perfect human being. Then it makes God into a cruel Being because than from the beginning he demanded from man more then they ever would be able to cope with.
Making Jesus into God bagatelles also the death of Christ, is it not?
In that retrospect I followed the Jewish tradition, knowing that they are the Chosen People, and choose to belief in their Only One God, in which Jesus also believed and to whom Jesus also prayed (and not to himself).
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Oh my, what a long and varied church history you have had! 🙄
Thanks for your detailed explanation and clarifying words, dear Marcus.
BTW, I know that our God makes the impossible things possible for man. If you like, see https://enteringthepromisedland.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/would-you-love-to-die-for-jesus/.
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Michael (http://awildernessvoice.wordpress.com/) and Suzanne
Shalom,
the apostle John is telling us that without the sent one from God, Jesus Christ, no human being would be able to have life in him. The apostle believes, like I belief that Jesus is the sent one from God about whom was spoken at the beginning of times.
“All things were made by him”- John is apparently alluding to the creation recorded in Genesis. God spoke, and it was done (e.g. “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” (Genesis 1:3). Notice another allusion- John 1:7, 8). But this creation was not accompanied by Christ, but by the “logos” of God. This is indicated by several passages:
a. “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” “For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.” (Psalms 33:6, 9). See also Psalms 107:20; 147:15, 18, 19; Isa. 55:11).
b. ” … by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water … But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Peter 3:5, 7).
c. See also (Hebrews 11:3) cf. (Jeremia 10:12, 13).5
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Marcus, I wholeheartedly agree with this:
“…the apostle John is telling us that without the sent one from God, Jesus Christ, no human being would be able to have life in him. The apostle believes, like I belief that Jesus is the sent one from God about whom was spoken at the beginning of times.”
No doubt, that is true.
About the other things, we still disagree, since I believe the LOGOS is Christ.
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But I do hope in our differences or disagreements we still can share the same hope and the love of Christ and shall keep spreading the Good News of the Kingdom of God.
Peace be with you and God bless.
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Amen, of course, we still have the same hope, Marcus, since what really matters is His love, not our doctrinal disagreements.
Peace be with you and every divine blessing to you,
Susanne
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Susanne and Marcus,
Thomas not only called Jesus, “My Lord,” but He called Him “My God” and Jesus did not rebuke him for believing in Him, though he had to see the risen Christ to believe. How much more blessed are we who believe that Jesus was not only human, but God Himself who came down and dwelt among us? That one called “The Word,” John made it very clear He was God in human form and was addressing this same argument, Marcus, which was held by the Gnostics that God could not dwell in the flesh of a man. Does it defy logic? Absolutely! And I have no problem with that because God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. If we can only believe in a god that conforms to our puny minds then He is no bigger than we are.
John could have not been more clear that the WORD was with God and was God and He came in the form of a man and dwelt among us. To Jesus Christ I also confess, “My Lord and my God!”
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Yes and amen, Michael. Excellent exposition! There is nothing that could be added here.
I am glad you mentioned Thomas who suddenly saw God in Jesus although our Lord was not yet risen and God had not yet sent the Holy Spirit from Heaven. God’s ways are truly not ours…
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Thank you, dear Susanne. You are a blessing to us all. Aren’t you glad that God’s ways and His thoughts are not our ways and thoughts? I love a god that is outside the box of human intellect and refuses to be put in one. I just love His surprises when they happen and His Spirit of revelation that He shares with us! 🐻
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You’re very welcome, dear Michael.
Often times I was mad at God because His ways and thoughts were not mine. But the closer He draws me toward Himself, the more I see He is truly love and does not want to withhold anything which is good from His children. He even delights in answering our prayers. Alas, we need a long time until we know how and what to pray for. But one day, we will be amazed when we realize that God hears ALL our prayers. What a lovely God and sweet Lord in Jesus we have. 🐱
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Susanne, If I can dare add one more comment onto this Looooong thread… Regardless of my last comment on here, your honesty has made me get in contact with something that has been bothering me. I must admit that I would like to see God do my will once in a while and do it in my timing. I have one thing I have been praying for for some time and He seems to be taking His own sweet time in answering it. Maybe I am not honest enough to admit that I am “mad at God” as you have, but I AM frustrated with His ways and timing to be honest. Then there is this thing called AGE. HEY GOD! I AM SEVENTY YEARS OLD HERE! I don’t have a lot of time left to see you answer this prayer. But then again, maybe He IS answering it, but just not in the way I wanted.
Susanne, you wrote, “But one day, we will be amazed when we realize that God hears ALL our prayers.” God help me to accept HIS will in HIS timing and LIKE His surprise in the way He answers my prayer. 🐻
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I am glad you added particularly this comment, Michael, and I highly appreciate your honesty.
God cannot help but being drawn to a heart that admits its true (hopeless) condition. I have to also admit that I have had the tendency to always try hard to NOT admit that I cannot change anything about my behavior without God’s help. From hence, no wonder that God must lead us into situations that get us exasperated with ourselves. Frustration, anger, wrath, hatred and more – these are negative feelings we do not only have toward our neighbors, we also have to get aware of basically not being able to love THIS God who behaves so differently from what we want Him to be. No human being loves God and no one desires Him unless He gave them a new heart that has been enabled to do so.
Indeed, it is a long process and I can only imagine your frustrations regarding your age and your hopes and dreams, seeing that God still has His own schedule. But, Michael, I have faith that this “one thing” will be fulfilled, though. Maybe, my words are of little help for you now. However, I keep praying what you wrote about in your last sentence above. Dear brother, God hears our prayers, especially those that ask for being transformed into the image of His Son, which is according to His will.
Love,
Susanne 🐱
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Thank you, Susanne, for you wise and kind reply. Of coarse you are right. You inspire me to get honest with God, for you are so open about your own heart.
God bless you always! 🐻
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You’re very welcome, Michael. I am happy you were inspired! 🙂
May God bless you immensely!!! 🐱
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