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check, devil, discerning the spirits, drawing boundaries, evil spirits, experience, following Jesus, freedom, God's guidance, heart, inspiration, loving your enemies, Oswald Chambers, restraint, thought life, wisdom
Well, God’s leading is never predictable…
Yesterday I had begun to write a longer blog article in which I described one of three dreams I had two days ago, as I felt this morning that God did not want me to publish these things. Maybe later? Only He knows. 🙄 Instead, He began to explain them to me on a deeper level than before, however, since God’s Spirit always shows us the things to come (cf. Jn 16:13), I cannot say when and how these events will finally happen. But lately God often told me one thing in a dream and the very next day, or only two days later, it really happened. Not that He ever shows me literally about whom or about what He is talking to me in pictures. No, without interpretation no dream ever makes sense. But the worst thing we can do is trying to interpret dreams from our own (carnal) understanding and reason since God alone knows what He wants to reveal to us. The apostle Paul told us a lot about the difference between the spiritual and the carnal mind, for example here.
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:9-16 ESV)
So, continuing in my series about discerning the spirits, I want to openly tell you that as of late I had to kick out a few commenters on my blog who did exactly THIS, that is, trying to help me understand my dreams according to their own logical thinking or to tell me what to do in order to help me “mature” as they thought fit. Well, if I really sense the Spirit of God in a comment, I always rejoice. And if a commenter once was on the wrong path because he had listened to evil spirits and I had to finally block him or her from commenting, but eventually comes back with a new and spiritual understanding that now comes from God, I will rejoice again. I am always happy when I hear God’s voice through whomever! 🙂 But as I recently declared very clearly, I won’t allow demons to speak on here (see https://enteringthepromisedland.wordpress.com/2015/11/11/do-not-allow-demons-to-speak/), both to protect my own spirit and health and to protect my readers who, perhaps, are still struggling with discerning the spirits, which is truly not an easy task for us, even impossible without God’s help (Jn 15:5).
Just yesterday I found an inspiring quote I want to share with you on here. It reads,
The author or speaker from whom you learn the most is not the one who teaches you something you didn’t know before, but the one who helps you take a truth with which you have quietly struggled, give it expression, and speak it clearly and boldly. (Oswald Chambers)
With his words in mind, I am trying to explain now how we could improve our discernment as for everything we hear and read, privately or on the net. Lately I realized that God also offers His help to those who do not have His Spirit yet, to non-Christians, so to speak. If there is something they should avoid to do, He gives them an immediate feeling of uneasiness or even anger about it. If they are confronted with certain persons, maybe for the first time in their life, and they realize that they cordially dislike these persons, even these negative feelings came from God. Just think about it for a moment… If we never had enemies, God would have never told us to love them. If we serve the Eternal God by following Christ, we will have a lot of enemies. Not that people themselves are to be hated, but the evil spirits inside them that want to take control over us in order to lead us astray and away from God. But how can we love our enemies then? Should we try to be their doormat by doing their will instead of God’s who only wants our best? Of course, there is only one answer possible, “NO! Never!!”
Therefore we need to set distinct boundaries concerning those whom God shows us as His, and thus, our enemies when they try to bring us back under a law of sorts by forcing their will on us since “for freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1 ESV)
As soon as someone tries to tell you what God wants you to do according to their “insights” although you feel an immediate check in your spirit, a restraint as Oswald Chambers put it, please, RUN or say at least “No!” in case you cannot avoid meeting these people. This is very difficult at times because many evil spirits have forceful personalities, but it is always possible with God’s help since He wants to see His children freed of any yoke but the easy yoke of His beloved Son who said,
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Mt 11:28-30 ESV)
In closing, just a sidenote as for listening to God’s voice as soon as possible. Often times in the past as I had ignored God’s very first warnings, that fact truly got me in hot water. If we do not listen to Him in the first place, He will give us several warnings later. However, it will be more and more difficult to get rid of these evil spirits to which we once opened up by not obeying God. Eventually, if we continue to ignore God’s voice, He turns us loose and lets us have our share of (sometimes very) negative experiences. Those evil spirits can deceive us so much that we even believe it is God who wants to see us suffer extremely. But no, it is only an urgent wake-up call for us! If your health has been attacked a lot lately, it might be that God wants you to draw new boundaries in order to set you free and heal you eventually. Please, trust in Him! God does not “punish” us with sickness. But sometimes He uses a vise-like situation in our life so that we finally cry out to Him and change our attitude toward others with His help and authority. That is at least the way He dealt with me lately…
You answered a question I have had.
“Should we try to be their doormat by doing their will instead of God’s who only wants our best? Of course, there is only one answer possible, “NO! Never!!””
Thank you for that.
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You are very welcome. I am glad to hear that you found this helpful, Fred. 🙂
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Susanne, you wrote:
“If we do not listen to Him in the first place, He will give us several warnings later. However, it will be more and more difficult to get rid of these evil spirits to which we once opened up by not obeying God. Eventually, if we continue to ignore God’s voice, He turns us loose and lets us have our share of (sometimes very) negative experiences.”
Lately I’ve been thinking about this very subject, the need to listen to and obey God without delay. Many times I’ve hesitated and the thing He’s asked me to do becomes more difficult, as if His anointing to do the thing is there in the moment that He asks, but if I fail to move with His anointing, He (and the anointing) will move on with out me.
I can’t think of a specific scripture that speaks to what I’ve observed time and again, our need to remain in the moment with God. And yet, a lifetime of following Him shows that He is a God who moves and He expects us to move with Him. Not unlike Jonah, I suppose … failure to obey can really stir up a storm and if that doesn’t bring about obedience, He may dispatch a whale with an appetite for recalcitrant flesh! 😉
Jack
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We are on the same page, Jack. Although I almost always felt the need to obey God without delay, I often had to admit that I couldn’t do it for some reason. There was an unseen power that made it an impossible thing to do for me at that moment. As often as I tried and tried to get rid of that power that held me back to immediately obey God – it was all to no avail until the Lord showed me today (!) what the very reason was.
It seems to me that we automatically open up toward controlling spirits in our tender years, as children or later as teens. We were not yet that suspicious back then… and often times those people closest to us, having had the best intentions perhaps, unknowingly forced their self-will on us. If we did not resist or rebel against it, we agreed with their own ideas of how our life and behavior should look like. And thus the more often we submitted to them, the more it became a habit that made it increasingly more difficult to discern God’s warnings as really being from God.
So, later when we are confronted with other people who are of the same spirit that has been familiar to us for many years, even decades, we cannot easily resist them. Those evil spirits know that we still have an open door for them and they try to come in again and again until Jesus has set us free to really submit to God and His will for us.
Well, if we do not submit to God and His will, we submit to Satan. That might be shocking for us to realize that our families and friends sometimes imposed – unintentionally or not – the devil’s thoughts and plans on us. BUT – and that has been my very problem, Jack… out of false pity for seeing that these people did not know God as well as I did, I caved in and submitted to them again. And again… And again! How foolish have I been!! ARGH!!! 😛
Just to give you an illustration right now… A few minutes ago I deleted another ambiguous comment from a nice commenter who replied to another nice commenter. Both of them are strong self-willed women and both of them believe that they clearly hear God. Alas, they don’t. 😦 If I let them continue to post on here, they will confuse me and others more and more, and eventually my health will be attacked by Satan and I will lose God’s peace and joy, too. So, there is a responsibility connected with blogging I have not seen that clearly before… 🙄
However, I do love your Jonah example and how you put it! 🙂 As for a particular Scripture referring to our immediate obedience, I thought of this one.
Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph 4:25-30 ESV)
Being “nice” although our heart speaks another language, I think we could call our behavior in such a case falsehood as well. And I believe that giving no opportunity to the devil means obeying God, doesn’t it? Eventually, the last verse admonishes us to not grieve the Holy Spirit. As for my own experiences, I can say that I often felt immediately when I would grieve Him and that He then stripped me of His blessings (aka the fruit of the Spirit). Alas, we learn by making mistakes, too, don’t we?
Susanne
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Jack and Susanne, this is some good stuff for sure. The example I thought of in the Bible about the consequences of not obeying God when He tells you to do something was Israel who failed to obey God and enter into the Promised land because they believed the fearful reports of the ten spies that came back all worked up about there being giants in the land. They believed in the power of the enemy more than they believed in the power of God who was ready to fight for them with huge hail stones and fire from heaven if they would only go forth by faith with Him.
The result was that all of them except the two spies that brought back a good report and said, “Yes, with God we can do this” … all of them died in the wilderness and when Israel DID cross over the Jordan 40 years later to take the land, THEY had to fight for it with less help from God. Many more hard lessons had to be learned by them as they took the land for themselves and they suffered a lot as a result.
Oh boy! does THIS sound familiar to me!
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WOW!! That was the perfect biblical example, Michael. And your exposition was great, too. ⭐
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Oh how I identify with your observation of being a trusting child and how that opened avenues for influence and control by others. Growing up, guilt and shame were overused to influence my behavior and when I became an adult, they were still powerful influences over me. Anyone perceptive enough to discover my guilt and shame “buttons” could immediately compel my compliance with their will. It wasn’t until my late 30’s that the Lord began to expose and heal those problems.
A born ponderer and daydreamer, I’ve often wondered the why of it all. There is of course the evil spiritual nature of it, but also, human ignorance involved with raising a child – at least of my generation. I’m introverted, intuitive, feeling – a musician, songwriter, lyricist, etc. Preferring to read, think and enjoy quiet time alone. Such a boy endures quite a pounding growing up to be involved in sports, and when older, peer pressure to party and rebellious behavior, etc. That I had no interest in any of those things was seen as weakness and a character defect by the majority who are were that way. The relentless emotional, mental and sometimes physical pounding to conform caused me to retreat even deeper into myself and the efforts to control and influence me became so intense that I learned (wrongly) that acceptance, even the love of my parents, were tied to my compliance and performing according to the will of others.
I suppose it’s no surprise then that to effect my healing, the Lord isolated me for 2-3 years, giving me just a few precious friends and counselors to work through faulty understanding, hurt feelings, etc.
Even now, at 60, I feel a tug whenever someone tries to guilt or shame me into something, but my reaction is altogether different; it brings out the roaring lion in me because I recognize it for what it is: someone trying to manipulate and control me – i.e., employ witchcraft. It’s the rare (and stupid) person who tries more than once. 😀
The wonderful human counselor the Lord allowed me to connect with, said so beautifully that the Lord would raise walls where there were none, and install doors and windows where I had erected impenetrable walls. He certainly has done that for me. That He sorted through all my junk, without criticism, with only love and caring, is why I know Him as wonderful counselor and great physician. And it makes sense to me, that He asks for my obedience so gently, never ever turning to guilt or shame which have injured me so in the past. Certainly I have felt His disappointment when I do not obey right away and that invokes sorrow and repentance in me, for what I want with Him, is friendship and love and I do not want to do anything to spoil that. His love is indeed patient and kind. 🙂
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Ha! I know the “roaring lion” thing, too, Jack. XD
I really had to smile while reading your description of yourself, how you were being raised and how and when you began to change. It seems to me in another life we could have been twins. 😉
Yes, I fully agree, God’s love is gentle and kind. If He had yelled at me, maybe I would have understood Him much earlier. But would I have really obeyed out of love? 🙄
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“If He had yelled at me, maybe I would have understood Him much earlier. But would I have really obeyed out of love?”
Wonderful thought and so true! 😀
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Thanks for your encouraging words, Jack! 🙂
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Triplets! I’m in this with both of you 🙂
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Your story sounds familiar (family- ier) to me, Susanne and Jack. I grew up with a strong willed father that made life hell for me if I did not obey to the letter and even do the will that he projected on me without the rules set done in concrete. In other words it was a type of mind control and witchcraft by a powerful soul that instilled great fear in my heart. To go with that was my mother who was always critical of everyone including him. Being an only child for the first eleven years meant that they could put their full attention on me!
All this set me up for a personality in me that had no clue who I was. I was always trying to be who everyone else thought I should be which gave me a constant identity crisis and one easily lead to do the will of any strong willed person I was with. In short… I HAD NO BOUNDARIES! I was prime pickings for Christian cult leaders that came along in my life in my 20’s and 30’s.
But, like you, Jack, I finally was removed from everything that had to do with “church” for 14 years while God establish HIS authority in my life and put me out of reach of those who came into the sheepfold of Christ by another way, the thieves and robbers in the church’s leadership. It was during that time that I finally started to see who I was in Christ and establish some boundaries that these strong willed men could no longer penetrate. Since then I have grown up to the point that I do not need men to tell me who I am, nor do I need their approval NO MATTER WHAT TITLE THEY HIDE BEHIND!
“I am my Beloved’s and He is mine.”
“He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.” (Song 2:4, KJ2000)
“The LORD is MY Shepherd…” and oh, what a relief it is!!!
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Your description of how your life had been in childhood is certainly one of the most saddening stories I have ever heard, Michael. 😦
No wonder that you had more than one identity crisis! But I think it is good that we know where the danger comes from (strong willed persons, in your and my case too). May God help us to draw the proper boundaries without feeling “guilty” about doing His will instead of theirs.
Also, I can really relate to the Scriptures you shared above, my dear brother.
In closing, I only want to tell you that there is no need any longer to try to be someone… just be who you are, Michael. I am so thankful that you are my friend and brother in Christ whom I highly appreciate.
Love,
Susanne 🐱
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Susanne, Thank you for your kind and loving reply. I highly appreciate you as my friend and sister as well and thank God that we can communicate in the depths of the Spirit as He draws us ever closer to the reality of John 17:21, ONE with the Father and the Son.
Michael 🐻
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Susanne, this post really resonated with me. Earlier this year, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, I (and my husband who was not yet saved at the time) were convicted to leave (‘called out’ of) the church system. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27. I know His voice! Our leaving was out of obedience to the Lord’s will, not ours as it was always our understanding that Christians always go to church to worship on Sunday (AM/PM/& Wed.PM). It wasn’t until after we had left the church system that my husband received the gift of Salvation (all glory to God) and then a few months following was baptized. We have been worshipping and fellowshipping together at home, studying God’s Word and continue to grow in our walk as our relationship with Jesus Christ continues to grow deeper and deeper. Even our marriage has grown as I am slowly becoming less and less of the spiritual leader in our home (this was by default before he was saved). Well, about a month ago, I was visiting family across country and asked if I could join them for Sunday service at their Reformed Baptist Church (I had left the SBC). The Bible study, taught by their pastor, prior to worship was all about making sure you are part of a church family in a church building and if you cannot find one, well you just keep on looking until you do. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. This man was commanding us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together…Heb. 10:25. During the break prior to worship, I went up and gently spoke to him about having been ‘called out’ by the Holy Spirit and that it was by his leading that we had left out of obedience, and that I had also exhausted my search in my area for a church that didn’t teach and or promote false teaching/error (not willing to compromise). Suffice it to say, this didn’t go over real well. All he chose to hear was that I was in disobedience because I had decided to no longer attend a church (it felt legalistic in my spirit). When I returned home, my sister and her husband who have been committed Christians for 30+ years who take their ‘walk’ very seriously, and are very, very knowledgeable about Scripture (especially the OT), shared with me (firmly I might add) that I was probably listening to a spirit of error and not the Holy Spirit because what my husband and I did by leaving the church system as part of the Body of Christ was going against God’s command, His Word. And again, she shared all the scripture verses (especially Heb. 10:25) that her pastor had covered. Not once during all of our conversations have I ever heard either of them discuss the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. This discussion is kept to a minimum. Sometimes we are put in a position where we have to chose to either please man or please our Heavenly Father. My husband and I know that we are right where we are supposed to be as we remain sensitive to our Lord’s leading through His Holy Spirit. What can appear as error to the religious man (and his traditions), is actually obedience to our Heavenly Father. We remain unmoved by their (mis)understanding knowing that the safest place to be is in our Heavenly Father’s will.
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Oh, Nancy, thank you so much sharing your testimony on here in such a detailed way! I do hope that Michael Clark will weigh in since he wrote some good stuff about the proper exegesis of Hebrews 10:25.
Nonetheless, I am relieved to hear that you and your hubby rather listen to the Lord’s voice than to the voices of men. It is anything but easy, I do know it myself. 😛 What you wrote here, I experienced too, even several times in the past. You said,
“The Bible study, taught by their pastor, prior to worship was all about making sure you are part of a church family in a church building and if you cannot find one, well you just keep on looking until you do. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.”
Pastors, priests, and non-denominational preachers need an audience that pays for their lifestyle (tithes and donations) so that they need to talk that way. Thinking about that finally opened my eyes to the truth.
Thanks again for your helpful contribution. I hope many will read it! 🙂
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Dear Nancy,
I relate to what you and your husband are going through. These people who push this doctrine are unwittingly part of a personality cult following, and are blind to the fact that they trust men more than they trust the Spirit of Christ. What they are saying about Hebrews 10:25 is always taken out of the context of the rest of the chapter. The point being made is that we are all called out of this world and the worldly church system (buildings, top down authority of men, legalistic tithing and giving, etc) unto a wonderful equal fellowship IN Christ as members one of another with Christ as our Head.
Here is the URL of what I have written on this subject:
https://awildernessvoice.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/just-who-is-really-forsaking-the-assembling/
Also, we devoted a chapter to this subject in the book that George Davis and I wrote, “The Vast New Covenant Transition.” You can read it online here.
http://awildernessvoice.com/VastNCTransition-Chapt03.html
It is also available in PDF format if you would rather print it out and all our books are free for the asking including the shipping.
God bless you both as you follow the wind of the Spirit,
Michael
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Dear Nancy, what a wonderful post you wrote! Wow, and God be praised for the salvation of your dear husband and that you BOTH are in agreement on what the Lord showed you concerning the communion with HIM in your own home. Thank you, Jesus!
Having been part of numerous churches and cults in my earlier walk, and eventually ending up leaving every one of them…I can still recall the “mental” lacerations we had to endure from the “leadership” every time the moment of truth came up and our eyes were opened to the fact that Jesus was not there. If there would be a place lower than the devil himself, that was the designated term placed on us. Those were very difficult years, and after the second last incident I was plunged into such an awful dark depression for about 6 months – I actually needed a vacation from God, that is how confused I was. During that time, I did not read my Bible or prayed at all, I just wanted my mind to clear and somehow find healing. And praise God, healing and clarity came… He has His eye on the sparrow, and me and you. 🙂
Nancy wrote: “We remain unmoved by their (mis)understanding knowing that the safest place to be is in our Heavenly Father’s will.”
That is so wonderful, I pray the Father will solidify His peace in your hearts to guide you with, as you continue on this exciting journey in discovering Jesus more and more. And the more you learn Jesus, you will realize that everything about our western concept of Church and Christianity is wrong! Completely un-biblical, but few dare say it so boldly.
E.
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That was a wonderful reply to Nancy, Elli! I really relate to what you have been through in the churches and cults… been there, believe me. Yes, His eye is on the sparrow and not one of them falls that He does not take notice and come to our aid.
Thanks for sharing this,
Michael
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Susanne, thank you for your thoughtful response. You said, “Pastors, priests, and non-denominational preachers need an audience that pays for their lifestyle (tithes and donations) so that they need to talk that way. Thinking about that finally opened my eyes to the truth.” This is what the Lord has been showing us as well. In fact, I just ran into a sister in the Lord last week who shared with me how much her pastor and the worship leader make and the raises they just gave themselves. This is not a mega church, but they do offer a traditional service and a contemporary service. Out of the blue, she just shared this info with me (I had not asked her about this). I was floored!
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You’re very welcome, Nancy. I am glad to hear that God showed you similar things. It is always good to be led by God Himself. 🙂
If we ask Him about something and we are still insecure, He is so gracious to offer us more and more confirmation over time until we have been assured of His continued leading and care for His children.
By the way, did you see Michael’s response to you above? 🙄
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Nancy, it sounds like you might enjoy one of my blog posts, called “Fun With Numbers”, which takes a satirical look at church finance. You’ll find it at https://thesonsarefree.wordpress.com/2015/12/13/fun-with-numbers/
About that whole “forsake not the assembling” thing, the Lord has taught me a helpful approach to examining such scriptures, by asking simple questions.
Like:
“What is being assembled” (1 Peter 2:5)
“Who is doing the assembling” (Matthew 16:18)
“What function(s) does the assembly perform” (1 Corinthians 14:26)
Another question that is difficult to answer, is:
“Where is it being assembled” …
It’s a question I’d love to discuss some day – as Revelation 19 or is it 20 (21?) talks about the ‘New Jerusalem’ descending from heaven to the NEW earth, like a bride adorned for her husband. Where scripture likens us to the ‘bride of Christ’, and it’s from out of heaven to the new earth that it descends, I have wondered if the Lord even intended to assemble His church (bride?) in this OLD earth, or, if in this life, the best we can hope for assembly-wise, is for that blessed 2 or 3 who gather together and are joined by the Lord?
The other way I look at the whole “assembly” thing is from the perspective of a retired aerospace manufacturing nerd … do you know that the Military has published standards that define words like “assembly”? Mil-Std-130 is one such publication that defines an assembly more or less as a piece of hardware assembled from 2 or more individual parts, that together perform a function that the parts are unable to perform individually. So an assembly, by definition, has function. Individual parts must first be joined together by purposeful design AND the assembly must be turned ON to accomplish its intended function.
1 Corinthians 14:26 paints quite a picture of how the assembly of the brethren is supposed to work – every one contributing to the operation of the assembly.
The pastor (hireling) who thinks it is an assembly to simply line the brethren up in pews, like sardines in a can, wherein they are prevented from coming together to function as described in 1 Cor. 14:26 (and elsewhere), are NOT in fact a working assembly, there are simply a collection of loose parts.
If said pastor continues to insist the Sunday morning snore-a-thon is in fact an assembly, I recommend a few of you sneak out to the parking lot and dismantle the pastor’s Mercedes and stack the parts neatly in the parking space. When he complains, tell him it’s still a car. Maybe then he’ll get the point that a loose collection of parts is NOT an assembly.
I’m delighted Nancy that there is no indication in your posts that you are at all stressed out or guilted by the pastor or your family. Way to stand firm in the Truth, sister! 😉 😀
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Michael, thank you for your encouraging words. Your two links gave me much food for thought, thank you for attaching. I will need to reread them again. Unfortunately, what you said concerning those who are blind to the fact that they trust men more than they trust the Spirit of Christ is quite true. If this is true concerning my sister and her husband, this truly grieves me (I know my sister has a tender heart). Not sure if this is more indicative of those who seek head knowledge over a changed heart and don’t even realize it. In fact, being able to discern and hear our Shepherd’s voice amongst all the other chatter that is going on today is a very serious issue within the visible church. I had noticed that there was not a lot of preaching and teaching on the power of the Holy Spirit and hearing our Lord’s voice (perhaps it was just a Baptist thing? Not sure.) Do pastors, preachers and teachers feel threatened that the Holy Spirit will put them out of business? Can’t believe this actually crossed my mind. You said, “I had to come out of that system so I could learn to hear His voice as my Shepherd instead of constantly listening to the voices of men taking His place.” Oh how true, and for those who hear His voice yet continue to remain in the church system, it will be a difficult battle as you will be considered judgmental, arrogant, narrow minded, one who causes division and prideful. I do not see that environment of worship and fellowship as “true assembling of ourselves together,” since we would have to go along to get along. I am reminded of Amos 3:3, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?”
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Nancy, as I read your response to what I shared here about people leaning on what Pastor Wonderful says instead of the still small voice of the Spirit who is trying to lead them into the truth, I was reminded of the instances where Jesus told people to not tell anyone about their healing, but just give glory to God. In almost every case they went and told the Jewish church authorities and then those wolves went after Jesus for healing on the Sabbath or some such thing. It was ingrained in them to submit to the systems of men instead of to the voice and will of God.
I found myself in this very same place because of a lifetime of submitting to authority; first my mother and father, then my teachers, then my military leaders and so when I got into the Protestant church setting at about 23 years old, I did the same. I always listened to the pastor and HIS will over me instead of the voice of the Spirit and what HE desired me to do. When I did venture out in faith and do what the Spirit said I soon found the wrath of that false shepherd coming down on me and it made me wish I had not. God had to unplug me from the church system altogether for 14 years, much of which I was on the back side of the wilderness and not sure if I was hearing His voice any longer, either! It was like drying out an alcoholic, except my “ism” was religion and submission to false authority.
What would have happened if Peter and John had listened to the Sanhedrin and never spoke in the name of the ascended Christ again, because they wanted to not rock the boat with the thieves and robbers in charge of the “church”? Thank God they made it clear to these men that it was better to obey God than men!
You asked, “Do pastors, preachers and teachers feel threatened that the Holy Spirit will put them out of business?” Well, my dear sister, my experience with these men is that they always make sure that when the bread falls off the plate to the floor, that it lands buttered side up. In other words because they are hirelings and work for a wage in their “work for God,” Mammon always wins. I sat there in the pews Sunday after Sunday and would watch the worship leader bring the people into the presence of God in their praises or hear a dear saint stand up and speak what the Spirit wanted the people to hear only to watch the pastor grab the microphone and say, “Well folks, we need to get back to the order of the service” or some such thing and I could feel the Spirit being grieved in my heart. The bottom line is about CONTROL. Who is going to have the pre-eminence over the people, God or man?
When John warned the people that they had no need that a man should teach them because they had the Spirit in them (1 John 2:26-27), the context was a dire warning that many antichrists were already among them. If you look up the meaning of the Greek word, “antichristo” it not only means “against Christ” but it means “INSTEAD OF CHRIST.” We all in the beginning have to deal with this old man in us that wants to rule our lives instead of Christ! Paul wrote, “The flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against the flesh…” We have to allow the cross to deal with the antichrist within US! When a man gets a title and a position in the church and this flesh has not been crucified, antichrist will reign over that church, not the Spirit or unction in the body of Christ who desires to teach them and manifest through His power in them. To answer your question, YES, a man who stands behind a pulpit (find that one in your New Testament) and lectures the people for an hour while they sit there in dumb silence is not about to let the Spirit raise up in the people into the fullness of Christ and decrease so HE may increase. Like Diotrephes, they love the pre-eminence.
Ephesians 4:11 will be taught and emphasised readily by them as they exalt their own positions (pastor, teacher, etc.), but not in the context of the rest of the chapter, “the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” Because of human top down authority the perfecting of the saints into the fullness of Christ never happens in that system.
God bless you and your husband, dear Nancy, as you submit to His leading in your life.
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Thesonsarefree, I had to chuckle when you recommended the dismantling of the pastor’s MERCEDES and stacking the parts neatly in the parking space. Ha! Ha! Your point was very well taken and I loved your analogy – thank you! I am always amazed that within the ‘visible church’ it seems like there are the few – those who are a part of the inner circle, the ‘friends’ of the pastor and his wife, and they are always the same people who lord it over others in their ministries. This is a very tight knit group and everyone else is outside of it. Never allowing or making room for others to use their gifts of the Spirit for the body of Christ. How are they to grow strong and mature if they are not allowed to exercise them? Yes indeed, 1 Corinthians 14:26 paints quite a picture of how the assembly of the brethren is supposed to work – every one contributing to the operation of the assembly. And that means EVERY ONE! Iron sharpens iron. Thank you for sharing with me.
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Susanne, I have been so blessed through the participation of your post. I have been following some of your posts lately as I just recently found you (and Michael). Last night I wrote a reply before going to bed and then deleted it. I could not sleep as it kept going through my mind what you were sharing. I rewrote it and sent it and am so thankful for the Lord’s nudging. Being ‘called out’ can be a lonely journey, but what a gracious God we serve. He puts people in our pathway for encouragement and fellowship, thus allowing us to continue on for His glory and His purpose.
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Thank you very much for your edifying words, dear Nancy! ❤ They did me a power of good today. 🙂
I have also been blessed by your contribution on here and I enjoyed reading your responses to Michael and Jack. What hit me in your reply to Michael was that sentence. You wrote,
Ha! Exactly!! So many in the visible church long for revival in their pews but do not experience it. Why? Because they only listen to their own ideas of how the Holy Spirit should work by putting God into a box of sorts while they remain on their, more or less, invisible pedestal (aka old self). Well, at first, the Holy Spirit would clarify that repentance is necessary for everyone who did not listen to God’s voice first. And thus the autocratic management in churches would have to collapse like a house of cards in order to rebuild God’s spiritual temple of which all members are regarded as members with equal rights. ALL of us are able to hear God’s voice if we seek Him and ALL of us are being given spiritual gifts. Do we see such a beautiful picture when we look at the appearance of churches today…? 🙄 If you have time and are interested, I wrote an article about true fellowship and spiritual gifts on here.
https://enteringthepromisedland.wordpress.com/2015/03/06/spiritual-gifts-and-fellowship/)
Every blessing to you,
Susanne
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Cie, thank you for your kind words of encouragement and for sharing your experience regarding ‘church’. It’s amazing how the longer we are out of it, the more clarity we have. The blinders have been removed, Praise God! And once our eyes have been opened, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to go back in. There is freedom outside of the institution – no more bondage to the traditions of men. You said, “And the more you learn Jesus, you will realize that everything about our western concept of Church and Christianity is wrong! Completely un-biblical, but few dare say it so boldly.” This is what I am beginning to see and understand. Cie, I am so glad to hear that you received healing and clarity from your experience. I know of another sister in the Lord who is just now coming to terms with the hurt she has endured from the leadership of her church as well as from other sisters in the Lord. It is our Heavenly Father whom we turn to for provision and not man. What a faithful and gracious God we serve! Psalm 25:4-5, “Show me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths. Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.
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I am glad you received some encouragement from my thoughts, Nancy and you are very welcome indeed. And yes, the hurts can run deep from the abuses (especially) from those we deemed sheep and not wolves. I am not saying everyone in the churches that have caused hurt to us are wolves, but they themselves do not “see” what they are doing.
The answer really is in the “crucifying of the flesh”, that is our 5 senses in what we feel, hear, see, touch and smell… and truly reckoning those senses dead, and not to take the offences personal. I know it is easier said than done, but it begins with recognizing where the “landing strip” for this stuff is… and then to start reeling it in and not give those “uglies” a place to land in us. Again, it always comes back to “death to self”, my SELF “feelings” should not have a voice, period!
We grow into this gradually, it certainly is a process as with everything. 🙂
Blessings of Jesus to you.
E.
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Susanne, thank you for providing the link to your excellent article, spiritual gifts and fellowship. As with the other links provided, I have printed them and will reread. They have all truly blessed me. Yes, “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” (1 Cor 12:7 ESV) The gift is not for the one who receives it, but for those who are in need of it. It’s always rather interesting when one has received the gift of discernment. That is one gift that is often rejected by others, and as I am learning, needs to be handled with humility. Ever learning and growing in His ways.
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You are so welcome, dear Nancy. And thanks a bunch for your encouraging words! 🙂
Yes, spiritual gifts are given so that all benefit from them since the Body of Christ is one (or at least, should be one). What you mentioned at the end of your response is something that God just lately affirmed to me insistently. Without humility we can be tempted to use our gifts as we see fit, that is, by using them according to the desires of our old self (with pride).
As for the temptation of misusing our gifts, I wrote a (not so long 😉 ) article about my own experiences in the past. Being put on a pedestal by other human beings because we seem to be able to do something they cannot was truly a BIG temptation for the old and uncrucified Susanne. From hence I saw the necessity of dying to my old self nature completely so that “no longer I live but Christ in me” (paraphrasing the apostle Paul). Just in case you want to know what I spoke of here, I wrote about it there:
https://enteringthepromisedland.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/the-temptation-of-spiritual-gurudom/
PS
Nancy, and I am so thankful for your warm, honest, humble, and wise replies on here! ❤
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I am thankful for you sisters, too! Great stuff you have been posting on here. ❤
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Spiritual riches in this thread, as I was reading it and praising God I got this idea about the beauty of the Lord in dialog such as this. It is truly what beauty is. Maybe that makes no sense without seeing it for yourself but I was taken aback by the beauty of this discussion and wanted to tell you all that.
First of all, I love the name Nancy as that is my mom’s name and she recently passed away. And secondly Nancy, it is so wonderful to hear about your newfound freedom in Christ – yay glory to God!
You said, ” And once our eyes have been opened, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to go back in. ” ok so I will be transparent here and share that hubs and I came to Christ late in life and had a blastoff honeymoon of great intensity. The Lord woke us up early on though (after just 3 years in the IC), thanks to inspired writings from Michael Clark and George Davis (especially The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiriacy) and through the Holy Spirit’s leading, we disengaged from institutional everything. But the hardships over the years (in and out of groups, cults, cult-light groups and many different types….) wore us down and eventually – due to undealt with idols of the heart – we did go “back in” .
Our rationale was to go get the lost sheep of Israel. Yeah right. What we were thinking was….. To find those few who “might” be questioning the status quo (as we once did) and be willing and to pay the high price required to lose their lives for the sake of the Kingdom.
Can’t say we didn’t try…..Nancy, we too were SBC tainted, then independent baptist etc but in no time at all, we could see that the fruit we so desperately hunted for, was no where to be found. Even in small group fellowships, the Holy Spirit was just unable to operate in the midst of heart/mind-numbing tradition and enmity with God flesh. Oh, the heartbreak.
I remember one time when we had an issue with the head-guy’s teachings and wanted to help “straighten him out” using the Bible, (LOL) the first thing he said to my husband was “What’s SHE doing here?”
Doesn’t that just speak volumes? So Nancy, you are in good company here, we have all been there and continue to seek and grow and trust, even in the face of great loneliness. Assembly of course. But only on His terms.
Many thanks for all your input, has strengthened and edified Christ in me today.
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Thank you very much for your great testimony and input, dear Skylla. Very inspiring! 🙂
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Hi Sky! I just read your reply out loud to Dorothy and we both related to your whole experience on coming out of that system made by and controlled by carnal men who love the preeminence. The longer I live (now 71) the more I see that there is not much we can do to set people free as long a it is US trying to do it. “Unless God builds the house, they who build it labor in vain.”
It helped me to see that we are in the Laodicean church age, one which glories in its riches and has Jesus outside its locked doors, knocking to be let in. It is interesting that the root word for Laodicea means, “Just the people.” “Jesus need not apply. We have what we are after and do just fine without Him, thank you very much!”
Soooo we see Jesus calling out to individuals not churches saying “IF ANY MAN will open unto me, I will come into Him and sup with him and he with me.” Jesus is the one who does the calling by His Spirit. As for the books that George and I wrote, we pray that they are scattered seed that falls into the hands of the right individual at the right time and are used as a second witness to the hearts of those whom Jesus is calling, for that is all that Spirit led teaching is. The Comforter is still THE Teacher and all we can do is share what He has told us as one beggar telling another beggar where we found some bread.
God bless you Skylla, Nancy, Elli, Jack, Fred and Susanne! I have enjoyed this article and the exchange it has generated on here. “Oh what fellowship, oh what joy divine as we lean on the Everlasting Arms.”
Love you all,
Michael ❤
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[ Michael wrote: “The longer I live (now 71) the more I see that there is not much we can do to set people free as long a it is US trying to do it. “Unless God builds the house, they who build it labor in vain.”” ]
Wow Michael, you are 71 already? I am trying to remember when we were down there to visit you. I think the last time was when Skylla and hubby were camping out in your neck of the woods, that has to be at least 12 years ago. Still have fond memories of that.
But to the other subject of trying to bring people out of the system, I am reminded of a dream mom had about that very issue when we were in the midst of the zeal of “helping” people come out of HER.
In her dream she was on a farm at night time and the chicken house was on fire. She rushed to the burning shed to try and get the chickens out to safety. But as soon as she had set them down on the ground, they would turn around and run back to the burning shed. A chicken is blind in the dark and they are running toward the only light they see, which in this case was the barn fire. From this dream, we realized that it was a futile attempt to pull people from the churches in our own zeal, they would only end up going back.
E.
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Elli, I think that Skylla and Shannon were out here in about 1999. Will have to ask them, I guess. That was a very revealing dream your mom had… reminded me of the proverb “A fool returns to his folly like a dog returns to he vomit.” Hmmmm…
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Sky, thank you for your encouraging words. And thank you for sharing what you and hubby experienced going back into the ‘institution/system’. Wow! It sounds like it may have been worse going back into the ‘system’ after you were ‘called out’ than to have remain in it. Following my phone conversation with my sister upon my return home from visiting, yes, I remained unmoved concerning having been ‘called out’, but still…I actually picked up the phone book and started looking at the listing of all the churches in my area…did I miss one, perhaps, that needed to be considered? At that moment, the feeling I had in my spirit was of such conviction that I was in disobedience that I shut the phone book and repented. The consequence of disobedience was something I did not want to endure. The book of Jonah is an excellent example. If we have been ‘called out’ by the leading of the Holy Spirit, and then turn around and go back in, Christ’s Spirit has been quenched, and as you noted based on your experience…His Spirit was unable to operate. That renders us “ineffective” for God’s glory and purpose. So glad to hear you and hubby are right where you are supposed to be…in His will.
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Michael and Cie, Shannon and I went out west in 2000. Left a piece of my heart up in NW Idaho I think…and would have settled out there were it not for having elderly parents back east. Meeting the two of you face to face will always be a treasured memory. And yes Nancy, you are quite right – a ridiculous blunder and horrific dismissal and yet that too has been redeemed. We often think of a hungry heart as spiritual seeking but there is a fleshly seeking that produces nothing but flesh, profits nothing. Once I was willing to cease……. become still…….and wait…….then I began to have ears to hear.
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Sky, that makes it official! 🙂 2000 it is. A lot of good things happened that year. I met George Davis about then and what a rich fellowship we have had together around the truth of the New Covenant and our freedom IN Christ. Did you happen to meet him as well on your trip out here back then? You might have been here just before God put him and I together. I still remember sitting there by your motor home in Farragut State Park and fellowshipping into the night. If you two can ever get away to come out here again, we have lots of room for putting up house guests in our new location. We will leave the light on. 🙂
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Yes, I remember our time together very well – abit of heaven on earth. 😉 No, we did not meet George sad to say. Do you recall that we were searching for my Great Grandmother’s old homestead and you led us to it? They were pioneers looking for a place to settle and when they came across Jewel Lake, my Great Grandmother got to name it and they stayed. I have a photo of my Grandma there when she was in her 80s or 90s. I hope to see again someday (and you!)
XOXOXOXOX
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Sky, I know where Jewel lake is, but I do not remember me taking you there. I am afraid my memory is not what it used to be, though. I hope you two do get out here again. It would be good to see you, both.
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